brewster@watdcsu.UUCP (12/02/86)
>(For the record, I can definitely state that with Sunday openings >I and my family would have put more spending into the economy over >the past couple of years than we have done. As Orthodox Jews we >can't shop on Saturday, and evenings are a hassle with kids. We >do much of our food shopping on Sundays as it is, but there are >purchases which are less time-driven (e.g., a new car) which we >have put off for lack of convenient shopping time. We have a very >relaxing Sabbath of our own and have no need to rest on other people's.) Come on now. If you have money that you want to spend then you will find the time to spend it. What are you proposing, you have a huge hoard of money saved up that you really really want to spend but just haven't been able to find the time to ? Sunday openings are the worst idea around. In the short run it may be better for the store to open if the competitors don't, but in the long run everyone will be open, and there is no advantage. In fact, there are huge disadvantages. i.e. increased overhead for sales staff without increased sales, a lot more time spent away from family by the people who must work on Sunday. The idea that being open more days will increase sales is plainly idiotic in the long run. This is like saying that if every store stayed open 24 hours every day, sales would increase even more. I have no particular interest in keeping stores closed on Sunday because it is the day or rest, long term analysis just indicates that there are no advantages to staying open. Protest Sunday openings, shop at stores which don't open Sundays. Try not to become a man UUCP : {decvax|ihnp4}!watmath!watdcsu!brewster of success but rather try Else : Dave Brewer, (519) 886-6657 try to become a man of value. Albert Einstein
rgatkinson@watmum.UUCP (12/02/86)
In article <2819@watdcsu.UUCP> brewster@watdcsu.UUCP (Dave Brewer / Sys Des Eng / PAMI / U of Waterloo) writes: > > I have no particular interest in keeping stores closed on Sunday > because it is the day or rest, long term analysis just indicates > that there are no advantages to staying open. FLAME ON! You just admitted to having no justification for preventing Sunday openings, other than you can't see any reason that anyone would want to stay open. Unfortunately for you, we happen to live in a free society, and in such societies, it is the general rule that no action of any citizen should be prohibited unless there is an overwhelming compelling reason to do so. If it is not advantageous for someone to open on Sunday, then LET THEM FIND THAT OUT FOR THEMSELVES! It just might be the case that there are those who would disagree that there are no such advantages. Justificattion of laws using logic like you presented really scares me. It can be used to justify just about anything. Hope you have a fire extinguisher. FLAME OFF! > > Protest Sunday openings, shop at stores which don't open Sundays. > On the contrary, support your local merchant who has the gumption to stand up for himself. >Else : Dave Brewer, (519) 886-6657 try to become a man of -- -bob atkinson "I do not think, therefore I am a moustache." - J.P. Sartre, "Nausea"
brewster@watdcsu.UUCP (12/03/86)
>> I have no particular interest in keeping stores closed on Sunday >> because it is the day or rest, long term analysis just indicates >> that there are no advantages to staying open. > You just admitted to having no justification for preventing > Sunday openings, other than you can't see any reason that anyone > would want to stay open. Unfortunately for you, we happen to > live in a free society, and in such societies, it is the general > rule that no action of any citizen should be prohibited unless > there is an overwhelming compelling reason to do so. If it is > not advantageous for someone to open on Sunday, then LET THEM > FIND THAT OUT FOR THEMSELVES! It just might be the case that > there are those who would disagree that there are no such > advantages. > Justificattion of laws using logic like you presented really > scares me. It can be used to justify just about anything. Did you read the whole posting or just choose to flame for the thrill of it ? I clearly stated that in the short run there is an incentive to stay open, and any rational merchant would choose to do this, if the criteria for operation is profit maximization. In the long run, there are several reasons why Sunday openings are undesirable, but these reasons are not entirely related to profit, i.e. any single merchant who doesn't open in the long run loses money; if all merchants don't open in the long run they all make money. Given your free society would you prefer the government limit Sunday openings or all the merchants get together (can you spell monopoly) and decide to profit maximize by not opening Sunday, or better yet, really profit maximize by opening only a few predetermined hours every week. Therefore, it is perfectly within the realm of responsible government to limit Sunday openings given that there exists this compelling reason. I agree in general with your comments about free society, etc, etc, I just disagree about the existence of the overwhelming compelling reason. Justification of posting based on briefly skimmed articles like you did really scares me. It can be used to justify responding to just about any posting. Try not to become a man UUCP : {decvax|ihnp4}!watmath!watdcsu!brewster of success but rather try Else : Dave Brewer, (519) 886-6657 try to become a man of value. Albert Einstein
cbbrowne@watnot.UUCP (12/03/86)
In article <2822@watdcsu.UUCP> brewster@watdcsu.UUCP (Dave Brewer / Sys Des Eng / PAMI / U of Waterloo) writes: > Justification of posting based on briefly skimmed articles like > you did really scares me. It can be used to justify responding > to just about any posting. I seem to get the impression that such justification is rather typical on USENET. People do respond to just about any posting. Incidentally, I too do not think that Sunday openings are a wonderful idea. Not that it really stinks, but that it will hurt employees in retail operations. They will certainly be the ones singled out to work on Sundays. If everyone else were working Sundays, who would be available to buy anything? The reason why this all is a popular idea is that few people actually work on Sunday. If they start to do so (notably as retailers), then there is no more advantage to being open on Sunday. I think that this may well be a hulla-balloed thing that will turn out much less nice than it initially seems.
brad@looking.UUCP (12/03/86)
In article <2819@watdcsu.UUCP> brewster@watdcsu.UUCP (Dave Brewer / Sys Des Eng / PAMI / U of Waterloo) writes: > Sunday openings are the worst idea around. In the short run it may > be better for the store to open if the competitors don't, but in the > long run everyone will be open, and there is no advantage. In fact, > there are huge disadvantages. i.e. increased overhead for sales staff > without increased sales, a lot more time spent away from family by > the people who must work on Sunday. > Protest Sunday openings, shop at stores which don't open Sundays. This is a classic case of the "I don't see a need for it, so let's ban it" syndrome. At various times in my life I have lived in other parts of the world where things are open on Sunday. The convenience was much appreciated. I don't know about you, but many people get the impulse to buy things on Sunday and then realize that the stores aren't open. While it is true that sales of necessaries would not increase with Sunday openings - people won't drink more milk - sales of other things that do rely on impulse buys would increase. The retail industry exists for the consumer, and should be open when the consumer is able to shop. The idea of a retail store that is only open 9-5, M-F is a throwback to the days when families were supposed to have a non-working individual called the wife whose task it was to shop. If you haven't noticed, these days are over. Every argument I have seen for Sunday closing applies well to requiring stores to only open during "banker's hours." An employee protection law that limited the work week to 6 days would be another story (not that I would agree with it, either), but at least it would not specify one particular day for resting based on some religion. -- Brad Templeton, Looking Glass Software Ltd. - Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473
ksbooth@watcgl.UUCP (12/03/86)
Finally, a novel idea on the net: people should have a reason for posting articles!
wagner@utcs.UUCP (12/03/86)
I think you all missed the point of the original posting (Dave Sherman, I think). He said 'we already have our own restful sabbath...we feel no need to rest on someone elses'. As I see it, the problem is one of religious freedom. The idea that a day be set aside, and retail store employees be allowed a day of rest is fine, and I doubt that anyone would seriously disagree with it. The fact that it MUST be Sunday is obvious religious descrimination. Jews observe Saturday as sabbath; Muslims observe Friday; my ignorance keeps me from being aware of others. The business issues are, to my view, aside from the point. Michael Wagner (wagner@utcs)
srradia@watmath.UUCP (12/03/86)
> >An employee protection law that limited the work week to 6 days would >be another story (not that I would agree with it, either), but at least >it would not specify one particular day for resting based on some religion. How would you ensure that a husband, wife and their children all have the same day off?
srradia@watmath.UUCP (12/03/86)
>The idea that a day be set aside, and retail store employees be allowed >a day of rest is fine, and I doubt that anyone would seriously disagree >with it. The fact that it MUST be Sunday is obvious religious descrimination. >Jews observe Saturday as sabbath; Muslims observe Friday; my ignorance keeps >me from being aware of others. The business issues are, to my view, >aside from the point. But then you could extend the same argument to Christmas and New Years. The equivalent days in my religion fall on different days. Are companies going to give me those days off and are schools going to give my children those days off? How far are you going to go? If we allow retail outlets to open on Sundays, do you think they are going to allow Christians to take Sundays off if they so desire? Agreed that Sunday closing is of christian origin, but in Canada I just look at it as a day of holiday due to historic reasons.
tim@dciem.UUCP (Tim Pointing) (12/03/86)
In article <1986Dec3.055023.29873@utcs.uucp> wagner@utcs.UUCP (Michael Wagner) writes: >... >As I see it, the problem is one of religious freedom. >... >The fact that it MUST be Sunday is obvious religious descrimination. Lots of people seem to be mis-informed about the "Sunday Closing" law. The law does not require stores to close on Sunday. I believe that the law states that stores which are covered by the law must have been closed for a 24 hour period in the last 7 days in order to remain open legally. (perhaps someone at LSUC could check if this is in-fact the case.) -- Tim Pointing, DCIEM {decvax|ihnp4|watmath}!utzoo!dciem!tim or uw-beaver!utcsri!dciem!tim or seismo!mnetor!lsuc!dciem!tim
csc@watmath.UUCP (12/03/86)
It used to be that Christian ideology and indoctrination justified Sunday closing. It's a sign of the times that it is now fashionable to dig for secular reasons. Sunday opening will oppress the individual worker. oppress the family. lower retailing efficiency. Will it oppress more than it frees? Will the conjectured retailing loss of efficiency be balanced by the gain in sales and the gain in efficiency for shoppers? These questions cannot be answered before the fact. There are too many variables. There are too many possible measures for each economic and social goal. The arguments against Sunday shopping are weak. There is no argument for Sunday shopping. There is only the fact that growing numbers of people want to do it. People who claim that Sunday shopping is clearly against the common interest are full of beans. ``The common interest'' is not concrete enough for us to easily relate mundanities like Sunday shopping to it. The people who incline toward Sunday shopping happen to be winning. Go team go! Watch social values change... Tracy Tims mail to watmath!unit36!tracy
henry@utzoo.UUCP (Henry Spencer) (12/04/86)
> ... Given your > free society would you prefer the government limit Sunday > openings or all the merchants get together (can you spell > monopoly) and decide to profit maximize by not opening > Sunday... Given a free society, the answer is clear: neither. It may be in the interest of the merchants to restrict Sunday openings, but it is not in the interest of the customers. As others have pointed out, once the interest of the merchants takes top priority, clearly we end up with the stores open only 9-5 Mon-Fri, or less. There is no valid reason for the government to intervene to help the merchants at the customers' expense. If it were a clear-cut, everyone-benefits-nobody-loses case, that would be different. It's not. If you are truly concerned about the store employees -- have you asked them whether they want you to protect them? -- then solve the real problem, by imposing limits on the work-week or something along those lines. That's a pretty flimsy excuse for Sunday closing. -- Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology {allegra,ihnp4,decvax,pyramid}!utzoo!henry
mmt@dciem.UUCP (Martin Taylor) (12/04/86)
What would be wrong with requiring stores to close one day of the
week, the daying being of their choosing, and at the same time
giving their employees at least two days off, one being the closing
day and another being at the employee's choice? That way there would
be no overworking, small stores would be at no disadvantage, and
factory workers (and orthodox Jews) would be able to shop at their
convenience. Furthermore, there would be no scent of having things
arranged to suit a particular supernaturalist sect.
--
Martin Taylor
{allegra,linus,ihnp4,floyd,ubc-vision}!utzoo!dciem!mmt
{uw-beaver,qucis,watmath}!utcsri!dciem!mmtdave@lsuc.UUCP (12/04/86)
In article <2819@watdcsu.UUCP> brewster@watdcsu.UUCP writes: > >>(For the record, I can definitely state that with Sunday openings >>I and my family would have put more spending into the economy over >>the past couple of years than we have done. As Orthodox Jews we >>can't shop on Saturday, and evenings are a hassle with kids. We >>do much of our food shopping on Sundays as it is, but there are >>purchases which are less time-driven (e.g., a new car) which we >>have put off for lack of convenient shopping time. We have a very >>relaxing Sabbath of our own and have no need to rest on other people's.) > > Come on now. If you have money that you want to spend then you > will find the time to spend it. What are you proposing, you have > a huge hoard of money saved up that you really really want to spend > but just haven't been able to find the time to ? Read what I said above. We don't have a huge hoard of money, but we do have a substantial positive cash flow and a credit line. When we don't spend it, our income goes into reducing the mortgage. We also have two very young kids. We like to spend time with them in the evenings, and we are usually too tired to do other than "basic" shopping in the evenings anyway. We cannot shop on Saturdays, except in December when there's a combination of late store openings and early sundown (the Sabbath is over at sundown). And then it's only the malls which are open. Unless we make a determined effort to go and look for something, other than everyday supermarket purchases, we are unlikely to be able to shop on any day other than Sunday. If we decide there's something we really need (e.g., kids' clothes) or want (e.g., the piano we recently got), we'll make a special effort, go out in the evening or take time off during the day, and get it. But there's a whole range of things we might buy if we had more casual shopping time. A second car is just one. > Sunday openings are the worst idea around. In the short run it may > be better for the store to open if the competitors don't, but in the > long run everyone will be open, and there is no advantage. I beg to differ. See above. I wouldn't object to legislation which entitles employees to Sunday off if they wish it. That would be fair to the Christian majority in the province without interfering with my shopping. I'm sure there are plenty of unemployed people willing to work on Sundays for some income. David Sherman The Law Society of Upper Canada Toronto -- { ihnp4!utzoo seismo!mnetor utai hcr decvax!utcsri } !lsuc!dave
dave@lsuc.UUCP (12/04/86)
In article <2023@dciem.UUCP> tim@dciem.UUCP (Tim Pointing) writes: >Lots of people seem to be mis-informed about the "Sunday Closing" law. The >law does not require stores to close on Sunday. I believe that the law states >that stores which are covered by the law must have been closed for a 24 hour >period in the last 7 days in order to remain open legally. Sorry, Tim, that is not the case. If it were the case, I would have much less objection. The Retail Business Holidays Act, R.S.O. 1980 c. 453, s. 1(1)(a): In this Act, "holiday" means ... (ix) Sunday ... s.2(1): Every person carrying on a retail business in a retail business establishment shall ensure that no member of the public is admitted thereto and no goods or services are sold or offered for sale therein by retail on a holiday. There is an exception (s.3(4)) for Sundays where the store was closed "during a period of 24 consecutive hours in the period of 32 hours immediately preceding the Sunday", AND the number of persons serving the public doesn't exceed 7, AND the total area used for serving the public on Sunday is less than 5,000 square feet. This exception effectively allows Jewish stores which are closed from Friday sundown until after the Sabbath to be open on Sunday, but only if they're small. (The size limitation has effectively been struck down for establishments closed on Saturday for religious reasons; the Ontario Court of Appeal overturned the conviction of Nortown Meats, a Jewish (although not kosher) butcher/food store in Toronto, on the basis of the Charter of Rights. However, the convictions of stores which stay open on Sunday but are not closed on Saturday for religious reasons, such as Paul Magder Furs, were upheld by the same court. All of this is now on appeal to the Supreme Court of Canada.) David Sherman The Law Society of Upper Canada Toronto -- { ihnp4!utzoo seismo!mnetor utai hcr decvax!utcsri } !lsuc!dave
bwp@utcs.UUCP (12/04/86)
In article <2819@watdcsu.UUCP> brewster@watdcsu.UUCP writes: > > I have no particular interest in keeping stores closed on Sunday > because it is the day or rest, long term analysis just indicates > that there are no advantages to staying open. > > Protest Sunday openings, shop at stores which don't open Sundays. > If you have no particular interest in keeping stores closed on Sunday then why advise people to boycott stores that are opened on Sunday? Why not let the market place determine what it can bear? Clearly, if stores find that they are not making enough money to cover the expense of Sunday openings, they will not stay open on Sunday in the long run. Let the labour laws protect the rights of the retail workers, and in this case, let the Charter of Rights protect the interests of the market place. Bruce Pinn
kishore2@watdcsu.UUCP (12/04/86)
In article <2822@watdcsu.UUCP> brewster@watdcsu.UUCP (Dave Brewer / Sys Des Eng / PAMI / U of Waterloo) writes: > >>> I have no particular interest in keeping stores closed on Sunday >>> because it is the day or rest, long term analysis just indicates >>> that there are no advantages to staying open. > > ... > ....... I clearly stated that in the short run there > is an incentive to stay open, and any rational merchant would > choose to do this, if the criteria for operation is profit > maximization. In the long run, there are several reasons why > Sunday openings are undesirable, but these reasons are not > entirely related to profit, i.e. any single merchant who > doesn't open in the long run loses money; if all merchants > don't open in the long run they all make money. Given your > free society would you prefer the government limit Sunday > openings or all the merchants get together (can you spell > monopoly) and decide to profit maximize by not opening > Sunday, or better yet, really profit maximize by opening only > a few predetermined hours every week. > > Therefore, it is perfectly within the realm of responsible > government to limit Sunday openings given that there exists this > compelling reason. I agree in general with your comments about > free society, etc, etc, I just disagree about the existence of > the overwhelming compelling reason. > > Justification of posting based on briefly skimmed articles like > you did really scares me. It can be used to justify responding > to just about any posting. > > Try not to become a man >UUCP : {decvax|ihnp4}!watmath!watdcsu!brewster of success but rather try >Else : Dave Brewer, (519) 886-6657 try to become a man of > value. Albert Einstein I also happen to think that the choice to open on Sundays should be left up to the merchant, or businessman. There is already too much government interference in business today. That however is an aside. What I would really like to discuss is the question of profitability for merchants who open Sundays.It is not clear to me that Sunday openings are unprofitable. A couple of examples. First, look at Chinatown in Toronto on a Sunday. You would think that the entire ethnic Chinese population is there on a Sunday! Well, you say that's an exception, it's a designated tourist area. But whenever I have been there, the number of tourists has been very small in relation to people from TO. Another example. In many cities in BC, everything (almost) is open Sundaysnow. The effect has been to increase competition, resulting in what I felt was increased service to the customers. One only has to walk into Jimmy P's supermarkets to feel this. Longer hours and more days open do stimulate the economy with more spending, impulse shopping is _not_ dead ( at least not for me :-) They are open Sundays in BC for about 2 years now I think ( someone currently living in BC now might want to supply the exact figure) and it doesn'tlook like there's any sign of it ending. Now, let's go to the other side of theworld, Hong Kong. Free enterprise reigns king in Hong Kong. _EVERY_ merchant and most businesses, factories, ect. are open on everyday. The merchant's busiest day is Sunday. And if its not profitable, they don't do it in HK! Many merchants rent the space they do business in. The rent and taxes has to be paid regardless of whether they are open that day. What a waste of resourcesto be closed Sundays! The rent in the large malls is not _cheap_ ! With more families where both partners are working, Sunday is a convenient time to do shopping. Friday nights and Saturdays are so crowded in some places that it's difficult to spend money because of all the time you spend lining up to pay! I say let the merchants and the consumer decide, if it is convenient the consumer will buy, if it's profitable, the merchant will be open. -- ============================================================================= | Sherman Lang | | | Systems Design Engineering | "A screaming comes across the sky..." | | University of Waterloo | | =============================================================================
clewis@spectrix.UUCP (Chris Lewis) (12/05/86)
In article <3750@watmath.UUCP> srradia@watmath.UUCP (sanjay Radia) writes: >How would you ensure that a husband, wife and their children all have the >same day off? That doesn't happen now anyways. Think of all the people on shift work. *Especially* 12 hour shift work. My father-in-law hasn't had a Saturday or Sunday with the family in the last 3 months. -- Chris Lewis, Spectrix Microsystems Inc, UUCP: {utzoo|utcs|yetti|genat|seismo}!mnetor!spectrix!clewis ARPA: mnetor!spectrix!clewis@seismo.css.gov Phone: (416)-474-1955
clewis@spectrix.UUCP (Chris Lewis) (12/05/86)
In article <3751@watmath.UUCP> srradia@watmath.UUCP (sanjay Radia) writes: >But then you could extend the same argument to Christmas and New Years. >The equivalent days in my religion fall on different days. >Are companies going to give me those days off and are schools going to >give my children those days off? >How far are you going to go? Companies and schools already do give people days off for their religious observances. At least in many cases they do. -- Chris Lewis, Spectrix Microsystems Inc, UUCP: {utzoo|utcs|yetti|genat|seismo}!mnetor!spectrix!clewis ARPA: mnetor!spectrix!clewis@seismo.css.gov Phone: (416)-474-1955
glee@cognos.UUCP (Godfrey Lee) (12/05/86)
This whole thing is very strange to me, a person who grew up in a metropolitan city (Hong Kong) that does not have hangups about religion (Sunday). Stores there open when they want, as long as they want, which means shopping becomes more of a family event. Most of the large stores still only open 6 days a week, they pick a weekday to close (some pick Monday, some Wednesday...), and they close at a decent hour at night, like 9pm, not because they have to, but it just makes sense economically. The stores that are owner operated, small ma & pa shops, tend to open for long hours, because that gives them a competitive edge, just like corner stores here does. So, I think that arbitrary decision that Sunday is a day of rest is stupid, and not in keeping with a modern day metropolitan city, where in most families both parents have to work, and have no time to shop during the week. It would make more sense, if you are going to control store openings, to force them to close on Wednesdays! I think a more reasonable thing to control is the number of hours that a store can be open, actually probably the number of hours an employee can be forced to work, plus mandatory overtime even if he is willing to work more hours. The market place will sort out the rest. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Godfrey Lee, Cognos Incorporated, 3755 Riverside Drive, Ottawa, Ontario, CANADA K1G 3N3 (613) 738-1440 decvax!utzoo!dciem!nrcaer!cognos!glee -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
shindman@utcs.UUCP (12/06/86)
In article <256@spectrix.UUCP> clewis@spectrix.UUCP (Chris Lewis) writes: >In article <3750@watmath.UUCP> srradia@watmath.UUCP (sanjay Radia) writes: >>How would you ensure that a husband, wife and their children all have the >>same day off? > >That doesn't happen now anyways. Think of all the people on shift work. >*Especially* 12 hour shift work. My father-in-law hasn't had a Saturday >or Sunday with the family in the last 3 months. >-- In fact, you probably need look no further than your own computer center. Ours has always had weekend shifts. Most are probably the same. -- ----------------- Paul Shindman, U of T Computing Services, Toronto (416) 978-6878 USENET: {ihnp4|decvax}!utcs!shindman BITNET: paulie at utoronto IP SHARP MAIL: uoft
dave@lsuc.UUCP (12/07/86)
In article <1944@utecfa.UUCP> edusoft@utecfa.UUCP (Educational Software) writes: > >well, when i went to public school in Cleveland (way back when) we did >get all Christian and all Jewish holidays off. it also seems to me >that York University (here in Toronto) has a policy where provision >has to be made by the professors either not to test material which >was delivered to the class on Jewish holidays or to provide copies >of the material to students who did not attend the class for such >religious reasons. That's standard policy at York and U of T. More interestingly, all of York University, and the law school at U of T, are closed on the first day of Rosh Hashanah and on Yom Kippur. The feeling is that it doesn't make a lot of sense running classes when a large proportion (1/3?) of students will not be attending. I usually work on December 25. Dave Sherman The Law Society of Upper Canada -- { ihnp4!utzoo seismo!mnetor utai hcr decvax!utcsri } !lsuc!dave
clewis@spectrix.UUCP (Chris Lewis) (12/08/86)
In article <1986Dec5.173538.23000@utcs.uucp> shindman@utcs.UUCP (Paul Shindman) writes: >[Regarding shift workers on Sunday] >In fact, you probably need look no further than your own computer center. >Ours has always had weekend shifts. Most are probably the same. I *am* our computer centre. And I don't get paid for it either :-). Seriously folks, in the real world of computer R&D, 37.5 hour weeks are a bit of a joke. Companies tend to treat you similarly to other salaried engineering professionals. Which means, to most companies, that you work until the job's done. Period. If that's another 10 or more hours a week, too bad. Nor do most of the places I've worked pay overtime - or anytime at all for the extra hours. Most of the time I don't mind, I happen to enjoy what I'm doing, and to be treated as a professional, you have to act like one. The time I get irritated with this policy is when schedules are originally intended to require overtime. As opposed to simply being behind schedule. The upshot of all this is that I do work a lot more than 40 hours a week, and have frequently worked 12 or more hours a day. Even a 40 hour day starting on a Saturday... (though, I'm getting too old for that now..) My wife has been averaging 35 hours of overtime per week for the last two months ... (At least she's being paid.) -- Chris Lewis, Spectrix Microsystems Inc, UUCP: {utzoo|utcs|yetti|genat|seismo}!mnetor!spectrix!clewis ARPA: mnetor!spectrix!clewis@seismo.css.gov Phone: (416)-474-1955