soley@moegate.UUCP (Norman S. Soley) (03/27/89)
OK, I'll show my ignorance. How would a psuedo-commercial orgainization
in Ontario (like for instance MOE) go about establishing an IP connection
to the Internet?
--
Norman Soley - The Communications Guy - Ontario Ministry of the Environment
Until the next maps go out: moegate!soley@ontenv.UUCP
if you roll your own: uunet!{attcan!ncrcan|mnetor!ontmoh}!ontenv!moegate!soleydavid@torsqnt.UUCP (David Haynes) (03/28/89)
In article <221@moegate.UUCP> soley@moegate.UUCP (Norman S. Soley) writes: >OK, I'll show my ignorance. How would a psuedo-commercial orgainization >in Ontario (like for instance MOE) go about establishing an IP connection >to the Internet? >-- >Norman Soley - The Communications Guy - Ontario Ministry of the Environment I was interested in this too. So far, this is a summary of what I have been told. I would love to get the ``straight scoop'' from someone in the know (rayan?). 1. You need to purchase a data router. The box of choice seems to be made by Cisco. (Does anyone have a TO reference for these?) 2. There seemed to be talk of a connection fee of about $15K. 3. There was also a yearly fee mentioned of about $15K. 4. All this was set in jello when I was asking -- Toronto, Waterloo and Western were just getting their act together then. 5. I assume that point 1. would also imply the need for a fast data line. I know that the links are at 19,200, but are voice-grade lines sufficient? -david-
andytoy@watdcsu.waterloo.edu (Andy Toy, Applications Support Group) (03/29/89)
In article <295@torsqnt.UUCP> david@torsqnt.UUCP (David Haynes) writes: >I was interested in this too. So far, this is a summary of what I have >been told. I would love to get the ``straight scoop'' from someone in >the know (rayan?). > >1. You need to purchase a data router. The box of choice seems to be > made by Cisco. (Does anyone have a TO reference for these?) I believe that the CISCO router is made by Proteon. Try sending mail to postmaster@proteon.com. >2. There seemed to be talk of a connection fee of about $15K. > >3. There was also a yearly fee mentioned of about $15K. I am not sure what the costs are. >4. All this was set in jello when I was asking -- Toronto, Waterloo > and Western were just getting their act together then. UW, UofT, UWO, Mac and Queens (?) are connected. This is ONet and has been created with the support of CLSC (Centre for Large Scale Computing) at UofT. I think that Guelph, York and Ottawa U's will be connecting too if they haven't already. >5. I assume that point 1. would also imply the need for a fast data > line. I know that the links are at 19,200, but are voice-grade > lines sufficient? The lines are leased from Bell. I don't know what grade they are. The connections are: UWO----UW----UofT----QU / \ / \56kbps link (all others are at 19.2kbps) Mac \ CornellU (NSFNet) Gateway to US Internet It looks like Guelph will hook up to UW and York will connect to UofT. Ottawa may connect to Queen's or UofT (I am not sure). This is just from memory, but if you want more details I can look it up or ask around here. -- Andy Toy, Department of Computing Services, | andytoy@watdcsu.UWaterloo.ca University of Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA | andytoy@watdcsu.waterloo.edu andytoy@watdcsu.NetNorth | ...uunet!watmath!watdcsu!andytoy | [129.97.128.5]
molnar@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu (Tom Molnar) (03/30/89)
In article <221@moegate.UUCP> soley@moegate.UUCP (Norman S. Soley) writes:
# OK, I'll show my ignorance. How would a psuedo-commercial orgainization
# in Ontario (like for instance MOE) go about establishing an IP connection
# to the Internet?
The logical connection path would be to join a regional net: Onet in this
case.
Onet began life as a cooperative network between a few academic
institutions in Ontario. Onet has grown to become a recognized
regional network that is part of the Internet. While I am not aware of
any restrictions as to who may join Onet, there is a definite
restriction on the nature of the traffic. It must be non-commercial in
nature.
The current Onet management policy is still informal, but I am told that there
are two membership classes (and these are in fact subject to change):
i) Full voting membership.
In order to become a full voting member, an organisation
must not only pay the $15k/yr membership fee, but must also
buy a Cisco router. A full voting member becomes part of
the backbone infrastructure. This means the organisation
must be willing to allow connections to the new router as
Onet requirements grow. The communications line costs are
borne by Onet. The new router is backed up by an Onet
maintenance spare.
ii) End node membership.
An organisation must still pay the $15k/yr membership fee,
but no longer has to purchase a Cisco router. All that is
required is to find an organisation already connected to
Onet who is willing to act as a gateway. The end
node will have to cover all communications costs. Note
that these costs are low in the Toronto area, and the
connection could be as simple as a 9600 baud SLIP
connection (TCP/IP over a serial line) between two UNIX
workstations. The connection could be between two
dedicated routers as well.
Again, let me emphasize that Onet is currently a cooperative network.
Policies have not yet been formalized.
Other requirements are simply those of any TCP/IP network. The
gateway/hosts in the organisation should, in principle, conform to
current Internet standards. Individuals interested in this should
refer to rfc1009 and the draft host requirements rfc.
Organisations formally interested in joining Onet may contact
Dr. Warren Jackson
Director, UofT Computing Services
(416) 978-8948
wcj@vm.utcs.utoronto.ca
One final point. A Cisco router is not made by Proteon. Cisco Systems Inc.
is a vendor of dedicated network routers, just like Proteon.
Hope this helps,
Tom
--
Tom Molnar
Unix Systems Group, University of Toronto Computing Services.andytoy@watdcsu.waterloo.edu (Andy Toy, Applications Support Group) (03/30/89)
Looks like I jumbled my facts in my previous followup. Cisco and
Proteon are different routers. The 19.2 kbps links use the Cisco
router and the 56 kbp link to Cornell U uses the Proteon router. I
hope this is now correct. I should stop my late night rn'ning :-)
--
Andy Toy, Department of Computing Services, | andytoy@watdcsu.UWaterloo.ca
University of Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA | andytoy@watdcsu.waterloo.edu
andytoy@watdcsu.NetNorth |
...uunet!watmath!watdcsu!andytoy | [129.97.128.5]mike@ists.ists.ca (Mike Clarkson) (03/30/89)
In article <295@torsqnt.UUCP>, david@torsqnt.UUCP (David Haynes) writes: > In article <221@moegate.UUCP> soley@moegate.UUCP (Norman S. Soley) writes: > >OK, I'll show my ignorance. How would a psuedo-commercial orgainization > >in Ontario (like for instance MOE) go about establishing an IP connection > >to the Internet? > >-- > >Norman Soley - The Communications Guy - Ontario Ministry of the Environment > 1. You need to purchase a data router. The box of choice seems to be > made by Cisco. (Does anyone have a TO reference for these?) Correct, except that this weeks price is closer to 20k$. (No :-) The alternate box is a Proteon. > 2. There seemed to be talk of a connection fee of about $15K. The router is the connection fee. > 3. There was also a yearly fee mentioned of about $15K. Correct again. This is the annual fee to pay for line charges and spare parts. > 4. All this was set in jello when I was asking -- Toronto, Waterloo > and Western were just getting their act together then. Western, Waterloo, Guelph, MacMaster, UofT, York, Queens, ISTS, ITRC are all in various stages of coming on. Ottawa is likely to join soon. > 5. I assume that point 1. would also imply the need for a fast data > line. I know that the links are at 19,200, but are voice-grade > lines sufficient? No. The requirement is for Routers at each end, hence sync data lines. 9600 is the minimum, and 56k is the next step that Bell offers in the city, if it offers it at all (ie not in Markham). 19.2 is available and used long-distance. ONET is most assuredly open to commercial members. If your organization has the interest (and the money :-), contact Peter Marshall, peter@julian.uwo.ca -- Mike Clarkson mike@ists.UUCP Institute for Space and Terrestrial Science mike@ists.ists.ca York University, North York, Ontario, uunet!mnetor!yunexus!ists!mike CANADA M3J 1P3 +1 (416) 736-5611
peter@hadrian.uwo.ca (Peter Marshall) (03/31/89)
I don't often get down this far in my news list, but someone pointed out the query to me and I thought that it would be a good time to post a general blurb on ONet that I wrote up for the Ottawa group that was about to join. I have added some parenthetical notes to update it in a couple of places, but I might have missed a couple of dated pieces of information. In addition to this note I can supply a copy of the (still) draft ONet charter and list of seminal decisions to anyone interested. ------------ This is a collection of notes for potential new members of ONet. It is in addition to the basic map of the current system and any more formal documents. Some ONet History (from a summary by Andy Bjerring) ONet evolved out of some initial efforts last spring involving two of the Centres of excellence recently funded by the Ontario government and several of the computing service organisations at the universities associated with those Centres. Although we have not yet completely defined our charter, the current draft states that ONet is a network established for the benefit of individual member institutions in support of their research and educational activities. The membership currently includes U of T, Western, Queen's, York, McMaster, Waterloo, and two of the Centres of Excellence (ITRC and ISTS). Special mention should be made of the membership of the Ontario Centre for Large Scale Computation, since they have agreed to provide special financing of part of the cost of the leased lines linking the current member institutions. For the original members at least, OCLSC will contribute funding to bring the line speeds up to 19.2kbps, up from the 9.6kbps the institutions felt they could afford on their own. Discussions are continuing about the longer term role the OCLSC wants to play in ONet. There are several prospects for expansion of the network during 1989. The University of Guelph is expected to join the network soon, and interest has been expressed by Carleton and a number of Ottawa based government and research companies. We expect to have a linkage into the emerging Quebec network in place by mid-1989. Sun Canada of Toronto is expected to join the network within the next few months. This, we hope, will be the first of many corporate members of the network. The main protocol being supported will be TCP/IP, although some of the links will also support DECnet. All institutions have purchased cisco routers. Currently maintenance is being supported by a spare router stored in Toronto, but other arrangements are being discussed. The capital cost of the router for each institution has been around $15,000. Annual costs associated with the leased lines and the maintenance arrangements will be about $15,000 for the current complement of members, although that will change as new members are added. The OCLSC contribution is on top of these amounts. The network has been operational (with the exception of the links to McMaster and York) since the end of September. We had some problems getting the DECnet part of the network working. This has meant delays for York and McMaster since we are converting existing DECnet links to carry their traffic. (McMaster has been up since December.) ONet is also supporting part of the cost of the University of Toronto's 56Kbps link to Cornell, NSFNET and so to the rest of the US and world-wide Internet. This vital link has been in operation since early October. Other projects that we will be looking at include the possibility of using the ONEt links to carry NetNorth traffic between institutions. We will be contacting BITNET to see if we could become part of the second phase of their BITNET II program that currently involves Princeton, CUNY, Cornell and Penn State. If so, we might be experimenting with their software over one or more of the ONet links sometime in 1989. We also will be looking for other applications and other sources of funding to help take the line speed to 56Kbps. If something positive develops in this area, we might be in a good position to begin talks with other groups and combine the data service with shared voice facilities using something like Bell's megastream service. The consensus, however, is that we should learn to walk before we attempt the more ambitious venture, and the 19.2Kbps facility will keep us all busy for a while. One final point that I might have mentioned earlier is that the private sector partners and associates in the provincial Centres of Excellence will be tied into the network as well, although it is unlikely that any will have more than slow speed or dial-up access through the host institution's network. The Physical Network The ONet network consists of lines leased from Bell connecting IP routers manufactured by cisco systems. We also help pay for a link into the US NSF network through the University of Toronto. Each node on the network (typically a campus) has an IP router attached to ONet on one side and to the campus network on the other. Using only cisco routers for this makes for few compatibility problems and generally makes the network easier to manage. The network is almost completely unmanaged. Well, that's not quite true. There is currently no central management entity. Management is performed cooperatively by a responsible technical contact at each site. The network is small and we are still exploring how to run it. For now we rely on an "expert" at each site to keep the system running. There are some acknowledged "super-experts" at the larger sites that are willing to help with problems beyond the local "expert". It should be remembered here that we are all very new to the game and that those quotes around "expert" really mean "take this with a grain of salt". Routing Basically when you connect your site to ONet, routing from your site into the Internet will be done by designating the ONet router to be the default router on your network. You should set up each of your machines that is to have access to the network in such a way that if they don't know how to get to a destination, then they should punt the packet to the ONet router on your site. The ONet routers at each site keep in constant touch with each other and an even smarter router located at UofT so they have a pretty good idea about how to get packets to their destination. Names We encourage all members to implement the domain naming system and a name server (BIND) for their campus. This will allow your users to address other sites by name rather than by number. It will also allow other sites to find out the names of the systems behind your ONet router. We still have some work to do to document how your campus name server integrates into the other name servers for ONet. For now join and then consult the people on the "<onet-workers@ai.toronto.edu>" list. You might also consider contacting one of the following people: "Reg Quinton <reggers@uwo.ca>" or "Lee Oattes <oattes@madhaus.utcs.utoronto.ca>". Topology The topology of the network is decided by the management committee. They are open to variations on the basic setup of the network. The fees payed by members are meant to cover the costs of renting data-lines to connect the various members and for maintenance on the routers. If the membership fee does not cover this cost we will probably have to make some exceptions to our universal membership fee. This might mean charging remote sites slightly more than the current membership fees. There is not a lot of money to play with. What we need from you 1. You must purchase a cisco router with at least one ethernet and one serial connection. This item is available through Granville Technologies, Toronto for about US$11000 - 5% discount. (It is considerably cheaper to buy in US dollars if you are buying from Granville.) The discount is probably only available to educational sites. As further links are added to the network you may be required to purchase boards for your router so that these connections can be made. (The minimum and maximum requirements are currently under review.) There is currently no restriction on what else you use your router for. At Western for example, it also routes between 3 campus ethernets. This sharing might have to change as ONet becomes a more formal and more managed organization. 2. Annual membership is currently $15,000. This is pro-rated on a monthly basis if you start your membership in the middle of the year. The year is May 1st to April 30th. 3. You might want to negotiate with OCSLC for funding to upgrade the basic line speed from 9600 to 19.2. OCSLC has been able to do this for the initial 7 members. There are no guarantees for the rest. Money after the first year (1988/89) may also be scarce! 4. Other connection arrangements can be arranged. We have worked out a mechanism for connecting without using cisco router, for end-node sites. (Members using this option would make an arrangement with a backbone site to install appropriate hardware and lease a the line to the new site. The membership fee would still be payable.) What you get 1. Membership in ONet. A vote on the Management Committee (which is invested with all power!). 2. The right to use all the facilities of ONet and its connections to other networks. 3. Your router will be covered under the consortium's maintenance agreement with Granville Technologies. (This starts (we hope) in May 1989.) You will have access to the ONet spare router until we get the maintenance agreement in place. 4. A connection to the network, paid for by ONet at 9600 bps (Or perhaps 19.2k bps if you are considered to be an important place for OCLSC to upgrade the connection speed.) -- -- Peter Marshall, Data Comm. Manager CCS, U. of Western Ontario, London, Canada N6A 5B7 (519)661-2151x6032 peter.marshall@uwo.ca pm@uwovax (BITNET); peter@julian.uucp
egisin@mks.UUCP (Eric Gisin) (04/01/89)
In article <1989Mar29.161607.11999@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu>, molnar@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu (Tom Molnar) writes: > ii) End node membership. > An organisation must still pay the $15k/yr membership fee, > but no longer has to purchase a Cisco router. All that is > required is to find an organisation already connected to > Onet who is willing to act as a gateway. The end > node will have to cover all communications costs. Note Onet should consider reducing the cost for end nodes to $1K-$5K, based on the size of the organization. Almost all the revenue from end nodes could be put into improving the backbone links, and with 10-20 new nodes you could probably upgrade the backbone links from 19.2K to 56K/sec. Everyone would benefit from that.
mike@ists.ists.ca (Mike Clarkson) (04/02/89)
In article <742@mks.UUCP>, egisin@mks.UUCP (Eric Gisin) writes: > Onet should consider reducing the cost for end nodes to $1K-$5K, > based on the size of the organization. Almost all the revenue > from end nodes could be put into improving the backbone links, > and with 10-20 new nodes you could probably upgrade the backbone > links from 19.2K to 56K/sec. Everyone would benefit from that. Have you looked at Ma Bell's pricing policies for leased lines recently? If so, you'll find that you need 15k$ end nodes to afford to upgrade backbone links to 56k. Mike. Mike Clarkson mike@ists.UUCP Institute for Space and Terrestrial Science mike@ists.ists.ca York University, North York, Ontario, uunet!mnetor!yunexus!ists!mike CANADA M3J 1P3 +1 (416) 736-5611