janick@crk56.bnr.ca (Janick Bergeron 1617964) (12/18/89)
While drunk drivers are crusing the city streets, while
husbands a beating on their wife, while pushers are selling
dope to our kids, what do the Ontario law enforcement agencies
do ? They charge shops for opening on Sundays !!
How many times have I started to fix something in the house
and find myself short of 6ft of 14 gage wire with no way to
get some until the next day. Both my wife and I work M-F 8-5.
We couldn't care less for the shops opening during these hours.
How can you justify, in a city like Ottawa or Toronto, where
most of its work-force are white colar workers with similar
working hours and often both men and women working, the forced
closing of stores on Sundays ???
Ottawa stores are closed M-W at 5pm. Nepean (south of Ottawa) has
extended shopping hours M-W 'til 9pm. Seeing how many people
take advantage of those extended hours makes you wonder why
stores cannot open on Sundays as well...And it's d*mn frustating
to constantly having to remember that a particular store is north
of baseline road thus closed at 5pm!!
I hope sunday shopping will be an issue at the next provincial
and municipal elections !!
--
Janick Bergeron Bell-Northern Research, Ltd Ph.: (613) 763-5457
VHDL Tools P.O. Box 3511, Station C Fax: (613) 763-2661
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada, K1Y 4H7
janick@bnr.ca library disclaimer; use disclaimer.all;gords@cognos.UUCP (Gord Smith) (12/19/89)
In article <656@crk56.bnr.ca> janick@crk56.bnr.ca (Janick Bergeron 1617964) writes: >How can you justify, in a city like Ottawa or Toronto, where >most of its work-force are white colar workers with similar >working hours and often both men and women working, the forced >closing of stores on Sundays ??? How about letting the people who have to work in the retail stores have a life? Back in high school I used to work in a 24-hour restaurant (Fuller's on Richmond Road, actually) and believe me it was no fun having to work on all days when the rest of civilization is off. My sister-in-law (that's right!) is an OC Transpo driver and has to horse-trade like crazy to get a weekend day off when typical family stuff happens (She had trouble getting a Saturday off for *her own* wedding). I know some services like these are "essential", but shopping is not. Give these poor folks a break! (No, I don't work in retail.) >I hope sunday shopping will be an issue at the next provincial >and municipal elections !! So do I. Nuke it. -- D. Gordon Smith Voice: (613) 738-1338 ext 6118 P.O. Box 9707 Cognos Incorporated FAX: (613) 738-0002 3755 Riverside Dr. uucp: gords@cognos.uucp || uunet!mitel!sce!cognos!gords Ottawa, Ontario "I bumped into Brewer's Retail 24 times!" - D. Prosser CANADA K1G 3Z4
kebera@alzabo.uucp (Krishna E. Bera) (12/19/89)
The justification these days for no-Sunday-shopping is not religious reasons, rather it is so employees of retailers get at least one day of rest. I say, why can't they stagger their shifts and have some of them take weekdays off? Another justification may be that communities should have one day of peace and quiet. This is a little harder to answer. However, I believe that most of the noise and pollution is due to non-retail business during weekdays. Happy holidays, -- Krishna E. Bera "Programmer on the loose" Voice: (613) 238-4101
kevinf@cognos.UUCP (The Amazing FERGATRON Revenue Generating Device) (12/20/89)
In article <656@crk56.bnr.ca> janick@crk56.bnr.ca (Janick Bergeron 1617964) writes: >How can you justify, in a city like Ottawa or Toronto, where >most of its work-force are white colar workers with similar >working hours and often both men and women working, the forced >closing of stores on Sundays ??? In article <7750@cognos.UUCP> gords@cognos.UUCP (Gord Smith) rants: >How about letting the people who have to work in the retail stores have a life? [ ... personal tragic examples omitted ... ] >I know some services like these are "essential", but shopping is not. >Give these poor folks a break! (No, I don't work in retail.) I reply: I will concede that those who will be required to work on Sunday are missing out on the weekend activities. I will also concede (somewhat less graciously) that such sacrifices are usually beyond their control. I hope that you will be willing to concede that such sacrifices are already demanded in many services that could hardly be deemed "essential". Computer Operations springs readily to mind, as does the entire food and beverage industry. Anyone seeking employment in these non-essential service industries does so fully aware that s/he may have to work all weekend, every weeekend to satisfy the requirements of the job. S/he may not like it, but s/he accepts the 'sacrifice' voluntarily to gain employment. All of the conflict over Sunday shopping seems to revolve around the issue of the welfare of the retail employees. Allow me to propose three solutions: 1. Disallow Sunday Shopping -- no retail business may open on Sunday, with the exception of certain businesses by special permit. This is the current law. PROS: the retail employee is protected from working a mandatory shift on Sunday (Gord's primary concern) CONS: the retail customer cannot shop on Sunday (Janick's concern) 2. Allow Sunday Shopping -- any business that wants to conduct business on Sunday may do so without prosecution by the law. PROS: the retail customer can shop on Sunday CONS: the retail employee must work on Sunday 3. Allow Sunday Shopping with constraints -- any business may conduct business on Sunday, but it's employees must be given the option of working either Saturday or Sunday, but not forced to work both. The employee may voluntarily work both days. PROS: the retail customer can shop on Sunday; the retail employee gets at least one day/weekend off CONS: employers may have difficulty scheduling shifts; current industries are affected by this legislation Okay, so none of them are perfect. Is there such a beast as a perfect solution? Janick closes with: >I hope sunday shopping will be an issue at the next provincial >and municipal elections !! Gord counters: >So do I. Nuke it. I respond: Why not provide a number of solutions and put each to a vote? Why not let each municipality decide, as is done in High Park (a DRY riding)? -- Kevin Ferguson | UUCP: kevinf@cognos.UUCP | VOICE: (613) 783-6818 Cognos Incorporated | <or> ... mitel!sce!cognos!kevinf| FAX: (613) 235-0809 SNAIL: 275 Slater St, Ottawa, Ontario CANADA K1P 5H9 | ICBM: 45 25N 75 42W "Sh*t doesn't stick to me -- I earn revenue for this company." -- moi
stewartw@cognos.UUCP (Stewart Winter) (12/20/89)
In article <656@crk56.bnr.ca> janick@crk56.bnr.ca (Janick Bergeron 1617964) writes: My wife is retail. My response is biased. However, your remarks were simply to outrageous to be ignored. >While drunk drivers are crusing the city streets, while >husbands a beating on their wife, while pushers are selling >dope to our kids, what do the Ontario law enforcement agencies >do ? They charge shops for opening on Sundays !! What an incredible statement. The Nepean Police Force has ONE constable with ONE car working on this. This is an insanely small percentage of their entire police force. The City of Ottawa Police currently has NO one performing this duty. They are considering putting an officer on this detail. This is hardly a major problem in the prevention of wife beating and drug dealing. >How many times have I started to fix something in the house >and find myself short of 6ft of 14 gage wire with no way to >get some until the next day. Both my wife and I work M-F 8-5. >We couldn't care less for the shops opening during these hours. Obviously you only care about yourself (or perhaps your wife also). More on that later. Of course with a little bit of foresight and planning most of these situations can be avoided. If it happens a lot you should consider becoming more organized. >How can you justify, in a city like Ottawa or Toronto, where >most of its work-force are white colar workers with similar >working hours and often both men and women working, the forced >closing of stores on Sundays ??? Most of the work force, but not all. This thing is certainly a slippery slope. If I can shop on Sunday, why not banking on Sunday. If I can bank on Sunday, why can't I get access to the government on Sunday. Where should the line be drawn? I think it should be drawn at ESSENTIAL services. That seems to be covered off rather well right now. >Ottawa stores are closed M-W at 5pm. Nepean (south of Ottawa) has >extended shopping hours M-W 'til 9pm. Actually it's until 10:00 PM. Over December all stores are opened every night until 9:00 PM even in Ottawa. Get the facts straight! >Seeing how many people >take advantage of those extended hours makes you wonder why >stores cannot open on Sundays as well...And it's d*mn frustating >to constantly having to remember that a particular store is north >of baseline road thus closed at 5pm!! My wife works one night a week and gets one Saturday off per month. She is a manager in a retail store. I get to spend one day a week with my wife. But you don't care about that, do you. Why should I care about what you want? There are thousands of families in this city in my shoes. But you don't care about them, do you? Is it too much to ask that I am able spend one day a week with my wife and family? What will Sunday shopping result in besides broken families. Well, higher prices of course. We won't really spend much more money (a little bit, but not enough to offset the higher cost of doing business). Few commissioned staff will be able to afford to take more than one weekend off a month, because Saturday and Sunday will be the prime days for them to make money. Some people believe that retail workers can work one Saturday or Sunday per weekend, but if that's when the money is to be made they can't. Quality of service will suffer. Many of the good personnel who can get work in other businesses will leave the retail sector. Those who have no choice will remain behind. >I hope sunday shopping will be an issue at the next provincial >and municipal elections !! It's already a municipal issue. The Regional Municipality of Ottawa-Carleton is firmly against Sunday shopping. I thankfully do not expect to see any change in this stance. Stewart Winter -- Stewart Winter Cognos Incorporated S-mail: P.O. Box 9707 VOICE: (613) 738-1338 x3830 FAX: (613) 738-0002 3755 Riverside Drive UUCP: uunet!cognos!stewartw Ottawa, Ontario "The bird for the day is .... nanday conure." CANADA K1G 3Z4
jmberkey@watnow.waterloo.edu (J. Michael Berkley) (12/20/89)
> On 18 Dec 89 13:50:44 GMT, janick@crk56.bnr.ca (Janick Bergeron 1617964) said:
JB> How can you justify, in a city like Ottawa or Toronto, where most
JB> of its work-force are white colar workers with similar working
JB> hours and often both men and women working, the forced closing of
JB> stores on Sundays ???
Because some of those families that have two people working have one
working retail and one working m-f, 9-5. Sunday is the only day they
can always share. Why is it unjustifiable to guarantee a commonly
shared day off?stewartw@cognos.UUCP (Stewart Winter) (12/21/89)
In article <1989Dec19.142917.5512@alzabo.uucp> kebera@alzabo.uucp (Krishna E. Bera) writes: >The justification these days for no-Sunday-shopping is >not religious reasons, rather it is so employees of retailers >get at least one day of rest. I say, why can't they stagger >their shifts and have some of them take weekdays off? Well, you missed the mark a bit I think. The issue is not quantity of days off. These employees will still get 2 days off per week and those days could even be together, but those days would generally be during the week. So, what's wrong with this you ask. Most of the rest of society is off on weekends. Kids are home from school on weekends, and friends are off work on weekends. Currently, Sunday is the only day that families with a retail worker can be sure that they can get together. Even evenings aren't safe because those are working hours for retail staff. Society seems to have gotten to the point that even when something is not essential we want it. The cost to others is not important. Stewart -- Stewart Winter Cognos Incorporated S-mail: P.O. Box 9707 VOICE: (613) 738-1338 x3830 FAX: (613) 738-0002 3755 Riverside Drive UUCP: uunet!cognos!stewartw Ottawa, Ontario "The bird for the day is .... nanday conure." CANADA K1G 3Z4
zougas@me.utoronto.ca (Tom Zougas) (12/21/89)
In article <656@crk56.bnr.ca> janick@crk56.bnr.ca (Janick Bergeron 1617964) writes: >While drunk drivers are crusing the city streets, while >husbands a beating on their wife, while pushers are selling >dope to our kids, what do the Ontario law enforcement agencies >do ? They charge shops for opening on Sundays !! And they give me tickets for driving 60 in a 40 zone :-) > >How many times have I started to fix something in the house >and find myself short of 6ft of 14 gage wire with no way to >get some until the next day. Both my wife and I work M-F 8-5. >We couldn't care less for the shops opening during these hours. What if your wife worked Wed-Sun 10-6? When would you spend a day with her? I think having at least one day off together is more important than a piece of wire. Tom.
jdd@db.toronto.edu (John DiMarco) (12/21/89)
There's a law which says that stores cannot be open on Sundays (with certain
exceptions). The police are merely enforcing that law. Don't blame them for
doing their jobs.
The most appropriate way to change a law you don't like is via the political
process. Write your MPP and tell him/her how you feel about Sunday shopping.
I don't think Sunday shopping is such a good thing, however. Remember:
if a store is open on Sunday its employees have to work on Sunday. The retail
sector employs a large chunk of the Canadian workforce. If Sunday becomes
just another workday for the retail sector, its character as a more-or-less
national day of rest is seriously diminished.
It is a good thing to have one day of the week on which most people do
not work. It generally assures that families and friends will have at least
one day a week to do things together. That's pretty important for many people,
including myself.
And then there's the religious factor. The predominant religion in Canada
is Christianity, which holds (for the most part) Sunday as a day of rest.
Keeping Sunday a day in which most people do not work seems to be the best
way of accomodating the most people.
John
--
John DiMarco jdd@db.toronto.edu or jdd@db.utoronto.ca
University of Toronto, CSRI BITNET: jdd%db.toronto.edu@relay.cs.net
(416) 978-8609 UUCP: {uunet!utai,decvax!utcsri}!db!jddgolchowy@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (Gerald Olchowy) (12/21/89)
In article <JMBERKEY.89Dec20084804@watnow.waterloo.edu> jmberkley@watnext.waterloo.edu writes: > >Because some of those families that have two people working have one >working retail and one working m-f, 9-5. Sunday is the only day they >can always share. Why is it unjustifiable to guarantee a commonly >shared day off? Sunday shopping does not force anyone to work on Sunday who doesn't want to work on Sunday. The law prohibiting Sunday shopping discriminates on the basis of religion and that is why it should be eliminated. It also violates what should be my individual right to work and earn a living in anyway I see fit (as long as it doesn't interfere with the rights of others). A store opening on Sunday does not interfere with the rights of anyone else. -- Gerald Olchowy <golchowy@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca> Chemical Physics Theory Group, Department of Chemistry University of Toronto, Toronto, Ontario M5S 1A1
billybob@bmers58.UUCP (Bill Nickerson) (12/21/89)
In article <656@crk56.bnr.ca> janick@crk56.bnr.ca (Janick Bergeron 1617964) writes: >Ottawa stores are closed M-W at 5pm. Nepean (south of Ottawa) has >extended shopping hours M-W 'til 9pm. Seeing how many people >-- >Janick Bergeron Bell-Northern Research, Ltd Ph.: (613) 763-5457 Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that Ottawa stores are opened until 6p, M-W.... Also, I don't support the Sunday opening thing, but I do support Ottawa keeping stores open until 9p, M-W. ...Billybob -- Andrew Lavigne | billybob@bmers58.uucp | // Astounding #3, Elmsley Crescent +------------------------------+ // Amazing Nepean, ON |Wanted: Original .signature. | \\ // Addicting | Call Andrew. | \X/ Amiga
mgreen@cs.toronto.edu (?) (12/21/89)
The Sunday Shopping controversey is just the tip of the iceberg. There real issue that the governments of Canada and Ontario have are bent on imposed their views on how you should lead your life. According to the government, you are supposed to live in a family with exactly 1 adult male, 1 adult female and the proscribed 2.2 children; you are supposed to be Christian, preferably of English or Scottish descent; you are supposed work monday-friday 9-5; you are supposed to go to church on Sunday morning and spend "quality time" with children on Sunday afternoon (reading the Bible and singing psalms, not doubt). Well, as all polls show, people who are not Christian, do not have children or just plain don't think that Sunday is special are in the vast majority. But that doesn't matter because in Canada, as we saw on the Catholic school funding issue, the political parties are virtually identical. Moreover, people who do not fit the the government ideal also tend top be younger, poorer, more transient and are less likley to get involved in politics. How many MP's do you think aren't married, don't have children or strong religious ties? They all do. These are the pillars of the community. Funny, but I thought that in a free society, people ought to be able to do what they want, as long as it doesn't injure someone else. My wife works every other weekend and I frequently spend Sunday in my office. It is not the end of the world. There are already alot of people who work Sunday and civilization goes on. Nurses, policeman, merchants at the Harbor Front, Chinatown, etc. seem to live perfectly normal lives. I heard all the same arguments against Sunday shopping when I was growing up in Pennsylvania. Well, the world didn't end there either and if anyone tried to reinstitute the day of rest, I suspect that there would be a riot. If this were a democracy, there would be little dispute: polls show 70% favor Sunday shopping. The real issue is not Sunday shopping but the authorian character of the Canadian government. Are the majority of us going to let the minority impose their views on on us with no more justification than they thing that it's a good idea. The people running the government, and apparenbtly some of the posters, are still locked into a 1955 view of society. There are still trying to impose antiquated values on a society which has drastically changed. Marc Green Computer Studies Trent University
tjhorton@ai.toronto.edu ("Timothy J. Horton") (12/21/89)
jmberkley@watnext.waterloo.edu writes: >Why is it unjustifiable to guarantee a commonly shared day off? Justify *enforcing* this kindness upon your lucky beneficiaries. And what guarantee? If we want to work like dogs, we can; most of us don't work in a corner store or sell shoes. We may demand a premium, though not exactly because of ancient superstition. If I want to go to the office and work on Sundays, I certainly can. If I want to work on my home all day, I certainly can, but every once in a while, you'll stop me for need of a bit or wood or glass. If I want to go shopping with the family, I can't. If I want to go out with my wife to look at dishwashers, I can't. Just exactly what is all this accomplishing? Are communities elsewhere in pandemonium for lack of Sunday shopping laws? Isn't the bottom line of our particular law that there is the usual self-righteous religious motivation for the current state of affairs? Christianity is theoretically about sharing and selfless generosity, but once brought to power it has usually meant forcing a narrow point of view, intolerance included, down everyone else's throats. The list of examples runs from prayer in school, through sexuality, abortion, and on to the support and content of our schools (especially in Ontario), and back through the practises of churches and religious communities over the last centuries. It follows from relentlessly, single-mindedly deciding what is best for everyone else. rmberkley, yours is an example of the christian attitude in practise, par excellance, though it may or may not be religiously rooted. In practical christianity people are told over and over that it's a really great thing not to question what they already believe. Should anyone be surprised at the outcome? Once the obvious wonderfullness of supposedly doing nothing on Sundays IN PARTICULAR is taken out of the equation what are we left with? I suppose it's people having time off that they can count on, on a roughly weekly basis? We already mandate something almost like this, on an annual basis. Cannot we find something that will work on a more short-term basis that is not steeped in religious intolerance? Are there no practical alternatives to the situation at hand that will *survive* into the the years after 2000? The current law is scarcely surviving today.
daford@watdragon.waterloo.edu (Daniel Ford) (12/21/89)
In article <JMBERKEY.89Dec20084804@watnow.waterloo.edu> jmberkley@watnext.waterloo.edu writes: >> On 18 Dec 89 13:50:44 GMT, janick@crk56.bnr.ca (Janick Bergeron 1617964) said: > >JB> How can you justify, in a city like Ottawa or Toronto, where most >JB> of its work-force are white colar workers with similar working >JB> hours and often both men and women working, the forced closing of >JB> stores on Sundays ??? > >Because some of those families that have two people working have one >working retail and one working m-f, 9-5. Sunday is the only day they >can always share. Why is it unjustifiable to guarantee a commonly >shared day off? Many people already are required to work on the day called "sunday". Such as the police, the fire department, jail guards, doctors, nurses, utility employees, air crews, airport employees, televison and radio station employees, bus drivers, newspaper employees, computer operators, cinema employees, actors, taxi drivers, waiters, cooks, hotel maids, subway drivers, weather persons, train crews.... What is so special about retail employees who work at stores not in designated tourist zones? It will never be possible to "guarantee" a common day off, there are too many "critical" jobs. Dan Ford
dehaan@ai.utoronto.ca (John de Haan) (12/21/89)
mgreen@cs.toronto.edu (?) writes: >The real issue is not Sunday shopping but the authorian character of >the Canadian government. Don't confuse Ontario with Canada (just because the Globe & Mail does, it doesn't mean everybody else has to :-) Sunday shopping in Edmonton (and I think other large cities in Alberta and B.C.) has been legal for several years now. Not being able to shop when I actually have time to shop was one of the unwanted adjustments I had to make when moving here. I just hope Toronto catches up to the rest of the civilized world real soon now. John de Haan dehaan@ai.utoronto.ca Department of Computer Science, University of Toronto
jmberkey@watnow.waterloo.edu (J. Michael Berkley) (12/21/89)
> On 20 Dec 89 17:56:58 GMT, golchowy@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (Gerald Olchowy) said: In article <1989Dec20.175658.10717@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca> golchowy@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (Gerald Olchowy) writes: GO> Sunday shopping does not force anyone to work on Sunday who GO> doesn't want to work on Sunday. The law prohibiting Sunday GO> shopping discriminates on the basis of religion and that is why it GO> should be eliminated. I don't remember stating any religious reasons against Sunday shopping. Why the big offensive on a side issue? The big issue here is the trust some people are willing to put in employers to not force people to work on Sunday or to not discriminate based on a willingness to work on Sunday. That kind of trust requires a lot of faith.
west@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (Tom West) (12/21/89)
Interestingly enough, this issue tends to split along two simple lines. Do you know someone who works in the retail industry? It seems that most of those who do, don't really want to see Sunday shopping. This may have something to do with the fact that they know what it is like to have no common day off in a family. They are aware that the idea of nobody *having* to work Sunday is bunk. Most small businesses will *have* to get somebody to work there. You simply won't be hired if you can't work the shifts. Obviously I am in this camp. My (now) wife and I spent about 8 months getting no common days off. I put it people's imagination just how much outcry there would be if business offices decided to open Sundays. You can bet a bloody big one! (Saturday's are of course out of the question as that's the big day in most retail stores). As for the rest, of course Sunday shopping is a good thing. It's convenient to shop when one has a day off, and nobody is going to force them work Sundays. (And if its repeated often enough, it will be true!) But then, they're only retail workers, not real people. It is worth remembering some minor facts. If a store can remain open on a Sunday, it almost certainly will *have* to so in order to compete. When a small store of 4 employees is open on Sundays, at least 25% if the staff is going to *have* to work Sundays, law or no law. Somehow I imagine support for Sunday shopping to be built on either the belief that people won't have to work Sundays (hopless delusion) or just simply not caring what this does to retail worker's family lives. As for equating life critical services with the convenience of Sunday shopping. (i.e. If the doctor has to be on duty Sunday to perhaps save my life, the store clerk had better be there in case I want to shop.) Might I suggest that in one case the benefit of saving a life has been determined to be worth the cost to the worker. I, at least, don't believe that my convenience is more important than retailers worker's home lives. (And yes, I work 9-5 M-F and get burned by this as well. That's why Saturdays exist). [Apologies if this is too strongly worded. My reasons for my feelings are obvious enough] Tom West -- Tom West BITNET: tomwest@utorgpu.bitnet, tomwest@gpu.utcs.utoronto Internet: tomwest@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca
clewis@eci386.uucp (Chris Lewis) (12/21/89)
In article <656@crk56.bnr.ca> janick@crk56.bnr.ca (Janick Bergeron 1617964) writes: > How many times have I started to fix something in the house > and find myself short of 6ft of 14 gage wire with no way to > get some until the next day. What you can do: find a section of the city that's denoted as a "tourist area", and see if you're lucky enough to have it include a hardware store. We're lucky - the Markham Main Street (Markham Road) Pro Hardware store is so designated, and is open from noon to 4pm on Sundays. T'is wonderful being able to fix plumbing leaks on a Sunday without resorting to plumbers.... Especially since this hardware store is one of the old fashioned kind that has *everything* "somewhere in back....". Unfortunately, this doesn't solve the more general problem... -- Chris Lewis, Elegant Communications Inc, {uunet!attcan,utzoo}!lsuc!eci386!clewis Ferret mailing list: eci386!ferret-list, psroff mailing list: eci386!psroff-list
evan@telly.on.ca (Evan Leibovitch) (12/21/89)
In article <1989Dec20.122639.1563@jarvis.csri.toronto.edu> jdd@db.toronto.edu (John DiMarco) writes: >There's a law which says that stores cannot be open on Sundays (with certain >exceptions). The police are merely enforcing that law. Don't blame them for >doing their jobs. That's not the point. There are lots of laws that get broken each day, and the politicians (and ranking policemen) get to selectively determine how to allocate their limited enforcement mechanisms. Each day they make judgements that some laws need to be enforced more than others. Prostitution is another example of a crime that applies everywhere, yet it's enforced more stringently in certain parts of the city, at certain times of day, at certain times of the year. On the whim of those who allocate the police resources. Nobody's blaming the patrol cop who's ordered to cruise the shopping malls on Sunday. The point is that cop's time is better spent punishing or preventing crimes that really hurt people. How is a cop's time best spent helping society? Going undercover to stop a drug importer, or giving out summons to people providing a service many feel is useful? >The most appropriate way to change a law you don't like is via the political >process. Write your MPP and tell him/her how you feel about Sunday shopping. I did, during the last election. Unfortunately, the candidate who appeared to be best at financial matters, roads and education was against Sunday shopping. Sigh. >I don't think Sunday shopping is such a good thing, however. Remember: >if a store is open on Sunday its employees have to work on Sunday. The retail >sector employs a large chunk of the Canadian workforce. If Sunday becomes >just another workday for the retail sector, its character as a more-or-less >national day of rest is seriously diminished. If labour laws are strengthened to keep anyone from getting fired 'cause they won't work Sunday, then this would be resolved. I don't want anyone telling me when my "day of rest" is. What if I want to close Tuesdays and open Sundays? Why should the government prevent me from doing this? >It is a good thing to have one day of the week on which most people do >not work. Fine. Why does it have to be the same day for everyone? If we can encourage staggered work hours, why can't we offer staggered work DAYS? We have public transit which is overcrowded weekdays but has tons of unused capacity Sundays. Business traffic would be less on any given day if it was spread across more days. I would welcome the opportunity to do some of my configuration and installation work on Sunday, when I can bring a client's computer down for rebooting without bringing the company to a standstill. >It generally assures that families and friends will have at least >one day a week to do things together. That's pretty important for many people, >including myself. Fine for you. Nothing is preventing you from choosing a job that gives you Sunday off. I want Monday instead. I won't insist you take Monday off, why must you impose Sunday on me? >And then there's the religious factor. The predominant religion in Canada >is Christianity, which holds (for the most part) Sunday as a day of rest. That's why the biggest controvery over store openings takes place around the time people are shopping for that great Jewish/Muslim holiday, Christmas. Have a look. Those are Christians filling those illegally-opened stores as much as any otther group. >Keeping Sunday a day in which most people do not work seems to be the best >way of accomodating the most people. What you call 'accomodation' is nothing of the sort. You want Sunday for rest. I don't. Who's being accomodating? The best thing to happen to supermarkets this decade is the advent of the 24 hour store. People who want to work the quiet night shift can do so, and I can do my shopping in the unhurried, serene atmosphere that's usually to be found at 2am. There's nothing forcing stores to stay closed at 2am, even though people probably need a good night's sleep as much as a "day of rest". Why is late night opening OK when Sunday opening isn't? -- Evan Leibovitch, Sound Software, located in beautiful Brampton, Ontario evan@telly.on.ca / uunet!attcan!telly!evan / (416)452-0504 If women designed condoms there is no doubt they would be not ribbed, but padded
brad@looking.on.ca (Brad Templeton) (12/21/89)
Do all these arguments justify the immense cost of the forced sunday closing? Yes, that cost is high. Many things in society must be built not to withstand average demand, but *peak* demand. In particular, roads, transit, shipping systems, and especially store staff, floor space, cash registers and PARKING space. Look at the parking lot of a large suburban grocery story or mall. On weekdays it sits half empty. When is it full? On Saturday, and during the Christmas season. When are all the cash registers in use? Saturday. When are the aisles full of people? Saturday. That whole parking lot, all that land, is there to handle that peak demand. Allow Sunday for shopping, and that peak is almost halved. The two days in fact, become not a lot more than the evenings. Christmas is still Christmas, but it's not as bad, since we don't get the true peak of Saturdays in December quite as badly. 6 days is enough to buy all the food you need, that's true. But at the very least it requires 7/6 more traffic, parking, staff, floor space etc. And since the day added is as good as the peak day, it actually requires, I would guess, something like 25% or more in greater capacity. Close it all sunday, but you increase traffic and turn land into parking lots. Shopping traffic on a Toronto Saturday can be as bad as workday traffic. I wonder how many people are dying in that traffic to keep stores closed, if you want to ask the emotional question. -- Brad Templeton, ClariNet Communications Corp. -- Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473
golchowy@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (Gerald Olchowy) (12/21/89)
In article <JMBERKEY.89Dec20171937@watnow.waterloo.edu> jmberkley@watnext.waterloo.edu writes: > >In article <1989Dec20.175658.10717@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca> golchowy@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (Gerald Olchowy) writes: > >GO> Sunday shopping does not force anyone to work on Sunday who >GO> doesn't want to work on Sunday. The law prohibiting Sunday >GO> shopping discriminates on the basis of religion and that is why it >GO> should be eliminated. > >I don't remember stating any religious reasons against Sunday >shopping. Why the big offensive on a side issue? > >The big issue here is the trust some people are willing to put in >employers to not force people to work on Sunday or to not discriminate >based on a willingness to work on Sunday. That kind of trust requires >a lot of faith. I disagree...the BIG issue is that the state is making laws that discriminate on the basis of religion. This should be in violation of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. If you don't trust you're employer, you don't have to work for him or her...this is a free country. -- Gerald Olchowy <golchowy@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca> Chemical Physics Theory Group, Department of Chemistry University of Toronto, Toronto, Ontario M5S 1A1
henry@utzoo.uucp (Henry Spencer) (12/21/89)
In article <1989Dec20.121732.19830@me.toronto.edu> zougas@me.utoronto.ca (Tom Zougas) writes: >What if your wife worked Wed-Sun 10-6? When would you spend a >day with her? I think having at least one day off together is >more important than a piece of wire. Then deal with the problem directly: limit employers' right to insist that people work on Sunday. Don't say stores can't open Sundays, just say that working Sunday can't be a condition of employment for full-time staff. Then the staff who value time off more than extra cash will stay home Sunday, the ones who are desperate for money and would rather work will work, and part-timers will get hired to make up any shortage. People keep promoting Sunday closing on the grounds that it has such nice side effects. This is silly, given that it also has negative side effects. It's much better to simply figure out what the desired effects are and deal with those issues directly. -- 1972: Saturn V #15 flight-ready| Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology 1989: birds nesting in engines | uunet!attcan!utzoo!henry henry@zoo.toronto.edu
evan@telly.on.ca (Evan Leibovitch) (12/21/89)
In article <1989Dec20.222459.21666@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca> west@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (Tom West) writes: >This may have something >to do with the fact that they know what it is like to have no common day off >in a family. They are aware that the idea of nobody *having* to work Sunday is >bunk. So what? There are laws that dictate the maximum number of hours you can be forced to work. If you do Sunday, you'll get another day off. And, to an increasing number of people, there's nothing special about which day it is. There's nothing special about Sunday. >Most small businesses will *have* to get somebody to work there. They're also free to close Monday or Tuesday, or whatever is their slowest day. Remember, there's only a finite amount of money to be spent out there. If more gets spent Sundays, less will get spent Mondays. Most of the local fruit markets are open Sunday but closed either Monday or Tuesday. What's wrong with applying that elsewhere? >You simply won't be hired if you can't work the shifts. You may not have noticed, but Ontario employers are having a rough time finding workers. Think of it another way - people willing to work Sunday will be more valuable, and probably paid more, than those who won't. The flexibility is worth something to a store owner, and people willing to work Sunday will be able to command higher wages. >I put it people's imagination just how much outcry there would be if business >offices decided to open Sundays. You can bet a bloody big one! Don't fool yourself. The number of people who either work weekends at the office or bring their work home with them is higher than you may think. The banking industry didn't fall apart when some started opening branches on Saturdays. That didn't mean all banks or all branches are open Saturday, but the ones who do get a competitive advantage. >(Saturday's are of course out of the question as that's the big day in most >retail stores). So when do the people shop, if they work Saturdays? > As for the rest, of course Sunday shopping is a good thing. It's convenient >to shop when one has a day off, and nobody is going to force them work Sundays. >(And if its repeated often enough, it will be true!) But then, they're only >retail workers, not real people. So who's holding a gun to your head to remain a retail worker? > It is worth remembering some minor facts. If a store can remain open on a >Sunday, it almost certainly will *have* to so in order to compete. Why is this a fact? I can think of many kinds of stores which would not open Sundays even if it they could. A place like a Grand & Toy, for instance, which caters to businesses, would likely find Sundays to be its quietest days, and stay closed. Even if it is true, why can the store not close on its lightest day instead? > When a small store of 4 employees is open on Sundays, at least 25% if the >staff is going to *have* to work Sundays, law or no law. So? The person doing that shift gets paid more in return for the sacrifice. Or brownie points. Or closer to a promotion. I don't know anyone who got ahead in life by just working 9 to 5. If you're not willing to sell me something when I want to buy it, fine. Just don't stop me from going to the person who is willing - and there are plenty who are willing... Retail workers who can't stand working on Sundays will look for employment outside the retail field. Companies who fire workers who don't work Sundays will find that they just don't have enough workers for the rest of the week. Retail workers will be harder to find. Pay will increase, as the Sunday element will make retail workers more scarce (and thus more valuable) than office personnel. >I, at least, don't believe that my >convenience is more important than retailers worker's home lives. Fine. So don't shop Sundays. Nobody's forcing you. But, to be consistent, I imagine you also factor the effects on workers in other industries, in every consumer decision you make: - You don't buy the superior Japanese car, but the inferior American one because it will keep GM workers from getting laid off; - When you buy clothing, you're always willing to pay the premium price for Canadian goods in order to protect the home lives of our textile workers; - You buy lots of fur products, because those hunters have been having a rough time making a living since the animal rights groups got involved; - And, of course, you lobby the government for higher vegetable prices, to give our farmers a decent living. >(And yes, I >work 9-5 M-F and get burned by this as well. That's why Saturdays exist). My heart bleeds... -- Evan Leibovitch, Sound Software, located in beautiful Brampton, Ontario evan@telly.on.ca / uunet!attcan!telly!evan / (416)452-0504 If women designed condoms there is no doubt they would be not ribbed, but padded
schuck@dciem.dciem.dnd.ca (Mary Margaret Schuck) (12/21/89)
In article <65018@looking.on.ca> brad@looking.on.ca (Brad Templeton) writes: >Do all these arguments justify the immense cost of the forced sunday >closing? Yes, that cost is high. >Many things in society must be built not to withstand average demand, >but *peak* demand. In particular, roads, transit, shipping systems, >and especially store staff, floor space, cash registers and PARKING space. >Look at the parking lot of a large suburban grocery story or mall. >On weekdays it sits half empty. When is it full? On Saturday, and >during the Christmas season. When are all the cash registers in use? >Saturday. When are the aisles full of people? Saturday. >That whole parking lot, all that land, is there to handle that peak >demand. Allow Sunday for shopping, and that peak is almost halved. >The two days in fact, become not a lot more than the evenings. >Christmas is still Christmas, but it's not as bad, since we don't >get the true peak of Saturdays in December quite as badly. >6 days is enough to buy all the food you need, that's true. But at >the very least it requires 7/6 more traffic, parking, staff, floor >space etc. And since the day added is as good as the peak day, it >actually requires, I would guess, something like 25% or more in greater >capacity. I left in most of Brad's article, because he makes a very valid point (although I don't think it was the one he intended.) Sunday shopping will not do the retailers any good at all. The best estimates indicate that for most retailers, opening on Sundays will not increase their gross revenues by more than 4-5%. Add to that the increased overhead of paying staff for the extra day etc and retailers will end up having to increase prices. Once other retailers open on Sundays the rest will be forced to to remain competetive, but this isn't some new and extra market they'll be tapping, it will just be people who used to shop on Saturdays but don't anymore. On the religious note, if a store feels that it's religious persecution to remain open on Saturdays and closed on Sundays, it's perfectly free to close on Saturdays and open on Sundays. Remember? (Of course, that's forcing people to choose between Judaism and Christianity! Oh, dear!) I agree that it would be nice to be able to shop 7 days/week, but we'd lose too much in the process. So a retailer isn't allowed to force employees to work Sundays; that gives small retailers the choice between folding because they can't compete, breaking the law and forcing their employees to work Sundays, or just hiring new employees that will work then and fire the others. Some choice. Think how you'd feel if your (small) employer announced that it would fold if you couldn't work Sundays. That would be a different matter, wouldn't it? Mary Margaret. -- ____________________________________________________________________________ My mailer hates everyone. Try to deceive it if possible. schuck@dretor.dciem.dnd.ca {decvax,attcan,watmath...}!utzoo!dciem!schuck ____________________________________________________________________________
darcy@druid.uucp (D'Arcy J.M. Cain) (12/21/89)
In article <1989Dec20.122639.1563@jarvis.csri.toronto.edu> jdd@db.toronto.edu (John DiMarco) writes: >There's a law which says that stores cannot be open on Sundays (with certain >exceptions). The police are merely enforcing that law. Don't blame them for >doing their jobs. > I still don't believe that "I was just following orders" is a legitimate excuse for trampling on people's rights. Policemen, as well as any other individual, have free will and can choose to violate someone's rights or not. I realize that it is difficult to be a policeman in today's society and not do this to some extent but I think we must protest it anyway or accept that "might makes right." >I don't think Sunday shopping is such a good thing, however. Remember: >if a store is open on Sunday its employees have to work on Sunday. The retail >sector employs a large chunk of the Canadian workforce. If Sunday becomes >just another workday for the retail sector, its character as a more-or-less >national day of rest is seriously diminished. > The police departments of this country also employ a large chunk of the Canadian workforce. Do we give them Sunday off? I like it :-). >It is a good thing to have one day of the week on which most people do >not work. It generally assures that families and friends will have at least >one day a week to do things together. That's pretty important for many people, >including myself. > Fine. Then take the day off. Why do you insist that I have to take it off as well? >And then there's the religious factor. The predominant religion in Canada >is Christianity, which holds (for the most part) Sunday as a day of rest. >Keeping Sunday a day in which most people do not work seems to be the best >way of accomodating the most people. > Now we get to the paragraph that made my blood boil and sent my finger flying to the 'F' key in the first place. Just because your gang (christians) is bigger than mine (Jews, athiests, pagans, whatever) means that you get to make the rules. If your priests and ministers tell you it is against the rules to shop or work on Sunday then feel free to abstain. What bugs me is the fact that you feel you have the right to stuff your religion down my throat. >John >-- >John DiMarco jdd@db.toronto.edu or jdd@db.utoronto.ca >University of Toronto, CSRI BITNET: jdd%db.toronto.edu@relay.cs.net >(416) 978-8609 UUCP: {uunet!utai,decvax!utcsri}!db!jdd -- D'Arcy J.M. Cain (darcy@druid) | Thank goodness we don't get all D'Arcy Cain Consulting | the government we pay for. West Hill, Ontario, Canada | No disclaimers. I agree with me |
jeffr@nttor.uucp (Jeff Robertson) (12/22/89)
In article <1989Dec20.175658.10717@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca> golchowy@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (Gerald Olchowy) writes: >In article <JMBERKEY.89Dec20084804@watnow.waterloo.edu> jmberkley@watnext.waterloo.edu writes: >> >>Because some of those families that have two people working have one >>working retail and one working m-f, 9-5. Sunday is the only day they >>can always share. Why is it unjustifiable to guarantee a commonly >>shared day off? > >Sunday shopping does not force anyone to work on Sunday who doesn't >want to work on Sunday. I don't buy that arguement. If an employee refuses to work on Sunday, the employer may not be able to force him to, but when the time comes for promotions, and the choice is between someone who worked Sunday and someone who resisted his boss, guess who is going to get the promotion. Sure, you aren't forced to work Sundays, but there are subtle means of persuasion. Unfortunately, that's the way the world works. P.S. Don't bother replying to me, as this account will expire on Dec. 22. Jeff Robertson. I don't have time for clever signature files!
chk@alias.UUCP (C. Harald Koch) (12/22/89)
[ Oh boy! Now we too have a 'debate', just like can.general! ] In article <1989Dec20.122639.1563@jarvis.csri.toronto.edu> jdd@db.toronto.edu (John DiMarco) writes: >And then there's the religious factor. The predominant religion in Canada >is Christianity, which holds (for the most part) Sunday as a day of rest. >Keeping Sunday a day in which most people do not work seems to be the best >way of accomodating the most people. This is my biggest complaint about the Sunday shopping laws: THE GOVERNMENT HAS NO BUSINESS ENFORCING RELIGION! On the one hand we have a whole slate of laws ensuring that a person cannot be discriminated against on the basis of religion (and a bunch of other things). On the other hand, we have the government passing and enforcing a law whose major basis is Christianity. At least one other religion has a day of rest that is not Sunday: The Jewish sabbath is from Friday at dusk to Saturday at dusk, I believe. For religious reasons this large group of people is unable to shop Saturday, and for legal reasons they are unable to shop Sunday. This is just an example; I am sure there are other prominent religious groups with similar problems. Where is the solution? Ban weekend shopping altogether? legalize Sunday shopping?
jmm@eci386.uucp (John Macdonald) (12/22/89)
In article <1989Dec20.122639.1563@jarvis.csri.toronto.edu> jdd@db.toronto.edu (John DiMarco) writes: [ ... ] > And then there's the religious factor. The predominant religion in Canada > is Christianity, which holds (for the most part) Sunday as a day of rest. > Keeping Sunday a day in which most people do not work seems to be the best > way of accomodating the most people. Without having any official statistics to back it up, my guess is that the predominant religion is now Agnostic (with a family tradition and some partial observance level of some Christian variation). Note: Agnostic is NOT the same as Atheist! Agnostic: no absolute beliefs regarding God Atheist: absolute belief that there is no God Certainly, there is a clear majority of people who do not belief that Sunday is a holy day that should not be tainted by commercial enterprise. There is also a strong concern that families should be able to share a day of non-work in common. It is by no means clear that enforcing non-working on Sunday for all people is the appropriate way of accomodating the desire of such families however. It certainly "solves" the problem in circumstances in which there is no problem - single people, couples with only one person working and no children in school, people who have Saturday as their "Holy Day", people who could work part-time on Sundays when their partner is home with the children, ... Like many laws in our society, it makes far more things illegal than just those things that the law is trying to prevent. There are alternatives. One is to try and solve the problem through means other than legislation. Another to use legislation that only prevents the actual problem. However, such legislation is much more difficult to specify - it has many special cases and loopholes, etc. and must be changed often until it converges on a fair implementation. Another alternative is to specify a law that is between the two extemes of clarity and fairness, using a law that is perhaps a bit more complicated to specify but has far fewer places where it is unfairly restricting activites that are outside the scope of the problem that is being solved. (This middle course can be an initial step in the iterative convergence towards a fair law.) The problem with all of this is that both sides are right. People DO want to be able to shop on Sunday. Retailers DO want to be able to open on Sundays. If they are allowed to, then workers in the retail sector WILL have difficulty avoiding working on Sunday, and those that wish to not work Sunday WILL be somewhat limited in their choices for employment. -- 80386 - hardware demonstrating the fractal nature of warts. | John Macdonald EMS/LIM - software demonstrating the fractal nature of warts. | jmm@eci386
kpicott%alias@csri.utoronto.ca (Socrates) (12/22/89)
In article <1989Dec20.175658.10717@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca> golchowy@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (Gerald Olchowy) writes: >Sunday shopping does not force anyone to work on Sunday who doesn't >want to work on Sunday. > Forgive my cynicism but this seems very naive. >The law prohibiting Sunday shopping >discriminates on the basis of religion and that is why it should >be eliminated. > I don't know about anyone else but I have seen a noticeable lack of the word "religion" mentioned in the Sunday shopping stories. This is not really a religion issue anymore (although it originally was). The media seems to be treating it solely as a legal issue, but this is really about values. What do we value more, making a few extra bucks or spending some time with those that we love? Everyone needs balance in their life and the possession- conscious society we live in doesn't afford that much time for taking a step back to look at ourselves from a more objective perspective. >It also violates what should be my individual right >to work and earn a living in anyway I see fit (as long as it >doesn't interfere with the rights of others). A store opening on >Sunday does not interfere with the rights of anyone else. > Neither is this issue about rights. Certainly you should have the right to earn a living as you see fit, as long as it doesn't interfere with the rights of others. But what if it interferes with the enjoyment of life? Do I have the right to run my electric lawn mower at 5am Sunday morning, even though I know my neighbour likes to sleep late? Certainly. But it's not very sociable. There is always a dividing line between one's rights and one's responsibilities. Some people don't even recognize the latter if it interferes with something they want. I believe we have a responsibility to ourselves to not let the ratrace run our lives. The best way to do that is to allow ourselves time to step away from it. This responsibility extends to our fellow man as well. I will support Sunday shopping when somebody convinces me that there is a better reason for doing it than simply adding another day to the worship of consumerism, or when I am convinced that nobody will be forced to work a Sunday they don't want to, through direct or indirect pressures. (That's a nicely phrased way of saying when h*ll freezes over.) -- Kevin Picott aka Socrates aka kpicott%alias@csri.toronto.edu Alias Research Inc. R+D Toronto, Ontario... like, downtown "There can be no offense where none is taken" - Japanese proverb
mart@csri.toronto.edu (Mart Molle) (12/22/89)
In article <65018@looking.on.ca> brad@looking.on.ca (Brad Templeton) writes about stores and the general urban infrastructure being overbuilt because the Sunday shopping ban eliminates one of the [potentially] busiest shopping days. He argues that many things are overbuilt by at least 7/6 and probably more like 2/1. Then, in article <2775@dciem.dciem.dnd.ca> schuck@dretor.dciem.dnd.ca (Mary Margaret Schuck) replies that Brad's argument is vacuous because: > Sunday shopping will >not do the retailers any good at all. The best estimates indicate that for >most retailers, opening on Sundays will not increase their gross revenues >by more than 4-5%. Add to that the increased overhead of paying staff for >the extra day etc and retailers will end up having to increase prices. >Once other retailers open on Sundays the rest will be forced to to remain >competetive, but this isn't some new and extra market they'll be tapping, >it will just be people who used to shop on Saturdays but don't anymore. Ms. Schuck's rebuttal is flawed for two reasons. First, it does not address a long-term view of the problem, only an intantaneous "snapshot" of what may transpire the day after Sunday shopping is legalized (if ever). Sure, the infrastructure capacity is (for the most part) there already, so by paying some people higher wages to work on Sunday's (and running the lights, heat, etc. for another day per week) it'll cost you more to do the same amount of business as you did before. But what about that new store you'll have to build 3-5 years from now, because the general population of greater Metro is is continuing to increase? Doesn't *that* cost matter? And what about all the new roads and transit we are projected to need over the next decade or two? (Not to mention the 3 new nuclear plants Hydro says we'll need to meet *peak* demands...) Don't you think some of that long-term cost can be delayed or avoied by staggered shopping days? The second flaw in her reasoning is that she assumes people will (grudgingly) queue up to spend the same amount in 6 days as they would have in 7. I don't know about her lifestyle, but there are certainly some goods and services that my family has simply ignored for lack of ["shopping"] time. I also know many people who "vote with their feet" by shopping *on Sunday* in Buffalo. Over the years, I've lived in the U.S. serveral times, and I assure you that one can go to church in the morning, spend time with one's family, and *still* zip off to the hardware store for the widget you need and the supermarket to buy something nice to have at a spur-of-the-moment dinner when friends drop by. Most smaller stores (except in malls) are still closed on Sundays, but homeowner and family oriented businesses are generally open. For example, even in LA I don't remember seeing car dealers open on Sunday. Life in Toronto is hectic enough without needless stresses such as this one. Mart L. Molle Computer Systems Research Institute University of Toronto Toronto, Canada M5S 1A4 (416)978-4928
rbutterworth@watmath.waterloo.edu (Ray Butterworth) (12/22/89)
In article <2775@dciem.dciem.dnd.ca> schuck@dretor.dciem.dnd.ca (Mary Margaret Schuck) writes: >On the religious note, if a store feels that it's religious persecution to >remain open on Saturdays and closed on Sundays, it's perfectly free to >close on Saturdays and open on Sundays. Remember? (Of course, that's >forcing people to choose between Judaism and Christianity! Oh, dear!) But lots of Christians have Saturday as their Sabbath too (7th Day Adventists, Worldwide Church of God, ...). It's only the revisionist sects that decided to move the Sabbath to the first day of the week instead of the last day where GOD intended it to be. (This newsgroup has been too quiet lately. :-)
hwt@.bnr.ca (Henry Troup) (12/22/89)
In article <1989Dec20.175658.10717@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca> golchowy@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (Gerald Olchowy) writes: >Sunday shopping does not force anyone to work on Sunday who doesn't >want to work on Sunday. Sunday shopping does not force anyone to work on Sunday who doesn't want to keep their job. When I worked in marginal jobs (like retail) it was in a place that was open Sunday. (An amusement park) Working Sunday was a condition of employment - not legally but actually. It's no different with supermarkets. -- Henry Troup - BNR owns but does not share my opinions ..utgpu!bnr-vpa!bnr-fos!hwt%bmerh490 or HWT@BNR.CA
jmberkey@watnow.waterloo.edu (J. Michael Berkley) (12/22/89)
In article <2775@dciem.dciem.dnd.ca> schuck@dciem.dciem.dnd.ca (Mary Margaret Schuck) writes:
MMS> Some choice. Think how you'd feel if your (small) employer
MMS> announced that it would fold if you couldn't work Sundays. That
MMS> would be a different matter, wouldn't it?
A similar thing happened to me when I worked as a bus boy. The boss
said we either worked for straight time on one particular holiday
evening, or we didn't work at all (I think it was Labour Day).
Everyone worked for straight time.jdd@db.toronto.edu (John DiMarco) (12/22/89)
If Sunday shopping is permitted, it will happen, because both consumers and
retailers want it.
But Sunday shopping will mean that workers in the retail sector will not
get a day off in COMMON with the rest of society. Families and friends will
no longer have a common day off to do things together.
Q: What about all those (doctors, police, firefighters, waiters, chefs, etc.)
who already work Sundays?
- unfortunately, those who currently work Sundays don't have a day off
in common with everybody else. But because working on Sunday is
generally restricted to those jobs which are necessary, this problem
is minimized. Right now, MOST people have Sunday off.
Q: Why not guarantee workers the right not to work on Sunday?
- This is very difficult to do. Economic pressures will force
businesses to pressure their employees to work on Sunday. Quite
frankly, if a store does lots of business on Sundays, an employee
is not as valuable to that store if he/she doesn't wish to work
on Sundays. Such an employee will be less likely to be hired,
promoted, or retained in an economic downslump, law or no law.
The net result will be that employees will work on Sunday anyways.
Q: Isn't banning Sunday shopping discrimination in favour of Christianity?
- Having a common day of rest is an important thing regardless
of Christianity's teachings or any other religion. It is true
that Christianity determines (in Canada) WHICH day of the week
will be this common day of rest, but that simply is a function
of the fact that Christianity is the dominant religion in Canada.
If Judaism were Canada's dominant religion, Saturday would be the
common day of rest.
If we're going to have a common day of rest in this country, why
not make it coincide with the day of rest of the most prevalent
religion?
Q: What's so bad about not having a common day of rest?
- It'll make things more difficult for people to do things together
outside of their place of work. If person A works Monday to Saturday,
and person B works Tuesday to Sunday, they'll not be able to do
anything together which requires a shared day off. If person A
and person B are in the same family, their family life will suffer.
If person A and person B are friends, their friendship will suffer.
This kind of suffering is hard to put a price tag on, but it
is potentially very serious.
I know being able to shop on Sundays is tempting to those of us who do not
work on Sundays. But think of those who will have to work on Sundays to
provide us with that freedom. Perhaps some day you'll want to share a day
off with one such person....
John
--
John DiMarco jdd@db.toronto.edu or jdd@db.utoronto.ca
University of Toronto, CSRI BITNET: jdd%db.toronto.edu@relay.cs.net
(416) 978-8609 UUCP: {uunet!utai,decvax!utcsri}!db!jddmark@watsnew.waterloo.edu (Mark Earnshaw) (12/22/89)
In article <1989Dec21.133607.7967@jarvis.csri.toronto.edu> mart@csri.toronto.edu (Mart Molle) writes: >For example, even in LA I don't remember seeing car dealers open on Sunday. Not to get into the argument about stores in general being open on Sunday, but the fact that car dealers aren't means that you can go look at cars without having to worry about being apprehended by a salesperson. :-) This is useful if you're just doing some preliminary looking at different models. Extra note. Having taken the quoted sentence out of context, I am not trying to make it look like Mart is against Sunday shopping. -- Mark Earnshaw, Systems Design Engineering {uunet,utai}!watmath!watsnew!mark University of Waterloo, Ontario, Canada mark@watsnew.waterloo.{edu,cdn}
stewartw@cognos.UUCP (Stewart Winter) (12/22/89)
In article <1989Dec20.175658.10717@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca> golchowy@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (Gerald Olchowy) writes: >Sunday shopping does not force anyone to work on Sunday who doesn't >want to work on Sunday. SCENARIO #1: Consider I offer you the following pay scheme. You are paid 3/4 unit of pay for each M,T,W,T or F day shift you work. You are paid 1 unit of pay for each Thurs or Fri evening shift you work. You are paid 1+1/4 unit of pay for each Sat or Sun you work. What days of the week can you afford to work? This is exactly the situation that the commissioned sales person will be in if Sunday shopping comes into effect. They will be forced to work both Saturdays and Sundays so they can keep a decent standard of living. Currently, they don't need to work Sunday to maintain that same standard of living. I would say that this is being forced by economic necessity. SCENARIO #2: Medium sized store with 4 managers. One manager always has to be present at any time. Preferably at least two. The budget is tight (much of retail is not bubbling over with profit currently). Sunday shopping comes into effect. A new manager will not be hired to work Sundays. One of those managers will be FORCED to work on Sunday. Even if protected by legislation, refusing to work Sunday would ruin any chances at promotion or bonuses. >The law prohibiting Sunday shopping >discriminates on the basis of religion and that is why it should >be eliminated. I don't think the reasons NOW are based in religion so much as the concept of a common day off. >It also violates what should be my individual right >to work and earn a living in anyway I see fit (as long as it >doesn't interfere with the rights of others). Basically, the law as it stands now fits this description. Stores with less than 4 employees and a limited amount of floor space can open on Sundays. In other words, an 'individual' small retail business can open. Any larger store basically will have to start violating the rights of its employees ... ie to meet minimum staffing requirements. >A store opening on >Sunday does not interfere with the rights of anyone else. Just the 'right' to a day off with your family. Something that is not a right in the legal sense, but perhaps something that society should put some value on. Stewart -- Stewart Winter Cognos Incorporated S-mail: P.O. Box 9707 VOICE: (613) 738-1338 x3830 FAX: (613) 738-0002 3755 Riverside Drive UUCP: uunet!cognos!stewartw Ottawa, Ontario "The bird for the day is .... nanday conure." CANADA K1G 3Z4
stewartw@cognos.UUCP (Stewart Winter) (12/22/89)
In article <19425@watdragon.waterloo.edu> daford@watdragon.waterloo.edu (Daniel Ford) writes: >Many people already are required to work on the day called "sunday". >Such as the police, the fire department, jail guards, doctors, nurses, >utility employees, air crews, airport employees, televison and radio >station employees, bus drivers, newspaper employees, computer operators, >cinema employees, actors, taxi drivers, waiters, cooks, hotel maids, subway >drivers, weather persons, train crews.... Actors? >It will never be possible to "guarantee" a common day off, there are too >many "critical" jobs. I take it that you feel that having "The Bay" open on Sunday is a critical job. Or are you just suggesting that all jobs should be fair game for Sundays. Remember that the job you do might be next. Would you mind working Sundays now and in the future? Would you like to be married to someone who works on Sundays? Do you know what most people in stores are doing? I bet you think they are shopping. Turns out that many of the people who walk into a store are just there to look around ... basically entertaining themselves. The majority of people who would go into a store on Sunday are not IN NEED. They would simply find Sunday more convenient. I would argue that we have plenty of extended shopping hours already. The disruption that it causes to families can not be justified by the extra convenience that would be provided. Stewart -- Stewart Winter Cognos Incorporated S-mail: P.O. Box 9707 VOICE: (613) 738-1338 x3830 FAX: (613) 738-0002 3755 Riverside Drive UUCP: uunet!cognos!stewartw Ottawa, Ontario "The bird for the day is .... nanday conure." CANADA K1G 3Z4
zougas@me.utoronto.ca (Tom Zougas) (12/22/89)
In article <1989Dec21.051318.6564@utzoo.uucp> henry@utzoo.uucp (Henry Spencer) writes: > .... >People keep promoting Sunday closing on the grounds that it has such nice >side effects. This is silly, given that it also has negative side effects. >It's much better to simply figure out what the desired effects are and deal >with those issues directly. So far, positive side effects of Sunday closing have been related to improving one's enjoyment of life (time off, etc) and negative side effects have been related to sales. I personally would suffer (:-) the negative side effects to experience the positive ones. Tom. -- I can be reached at... zougas@me.utoronto.ca || zougas@me.toronto.edu || ...!utai!me!zougas
geoff@utstat.uucp (Geoff Collyer) (12/22/89)
Tom Zougas: >So far, positive side effects of Sunday closing have been related to >improving one's enjoyment of life (time off, etc) and negative side >effects have been related to sales. I don't know about the rest of you, but by the end of the week, I'm too exhausted to get out of bed, never mind out of the house, on Saturday. This means that I essentially never shop until I begin to run out of clothes or some other essential, then I skip work and do some emergency shopping. Sunday shopping would certainly improve my enjoyment of life (and would even increase the amount of money I spend). -- Geoff Collyer utzoo!utstat!geoff, geoff@utstat.toronto.edu
kpicott%alias@csri.utoronto.ca (Socrates) (12/22/89)
In article <89Dec20.141047est.2233@neat.cs.toronto.edu> mgreen@cs.toronto.edu (?) writes: >[red herring argument about freedom of religion or non-religion] > I agree with the first statement made in this posting about the government trying to tell you how to lead your life. I completely and utterly disagree with the assumption that since someone is forcing you to do something then that thing is necessarily evil. (This is what I meant by "red herring".) >How many MP's do you think aren't >married, don't have children or strong religious ties? They >all do. These are the pillars of the community. > .. and they all got elected. I guess our society still values that kind of qualities. There may be hope yet. (If only it wasn't just a political facade -- <sigh>.) >Funny, but I thought that in a free society, people ought to be able >to do what they want, as long as it doesn't injure someone else. > This sounds more like anarchy to me. With any form of government people are restricted by the rules of society, whether they agree with them or not. Am I free to blackout a city by destroying a power station, as long as I make sure that no one is inside? After all, it's the looters and the National Guard that are injuring people, not me. >My wife works every other weekend and I frequently spend Sunday in my >office. It is not the end of the world. > Hard work never hurt anyone eh? Except for ulcers, heart problems, high blood pressure, etc... Hard work should be self-motivated, then it doesn't bring the attendant stress problems. People who love their work could work 16 hour days, 7 days a week without being affected. Unfortunately those are not (in 99% of the cases) the people who would be working. The people working would be the ones who have a job just to pay the bills. (Talk to checkout clerks sometime and find out how many of them have job satisfaction.) My concern is that when the extra day is introduced this type of person will gladly work it since they could always use the extra MONEY. MONEY, MONEY, MONEY! Isn't it important enough already? >There are already alot of >people who work Sunday and civilization goes on. > Herring here too. There are also a lot of people who are killed every day, and who starve every day and civilization goes on. Does that mean that noone should be stopped from killing or prevented from starving? >If this were a democracy, there >would be little dispute: polls show 70% favor Sunday shopping. > Another herring. "Polls" never represent the will of the people, only the will of the people who participate in polls. Maybe the polls were taken on a Sunday at Loblaws? (Fight herring with herring I always say.) >The real issue is not Sunday shopping but the authorian character of >the Canadian government. Are the majority of us going to let the >minority impose their views on on us with no more justification than >they thing that it's a good idea. > Isn't this what a representative democracy is all about? :-t >The people running the government, >and apparenbtly some of the posters, are still locked into a 1955 view >of society. There are still trying to impose antiquated values on a >society which has drastically changed. > The problem is that the changes are not necessarily pointing in the right direction. (Plastics, aerosols and smog should convince you of this.) Somebody (meaning us) has to watch where we are going instead of just charging headlong like a bull. There might be a bigger bull charging the other way! -- Kevin Picott aka Socrates aka kpicott%alias@csri.toronto.edu Alias Research Inc. R+D Toronto, Ontario... like, downtown "There can be no offense where none is taken" - Japanese proverb
kpicott%alias@csri.utoronto.ca (Socrates) (12/22/89)
In article <25900FAC.1DA4@telly.on.ca> evan@telly.on.ca (Evan Leibovitch) writes: >That's not the point. There are lots of laws that get broken each day, >and the politicians (and ranking policemen) get to selectively determine >how to allocate their limited enforcement mechanisms. > Who is better qualified to make this judgment? You? It *has* to be made, since there is such a manpower shortage. >The point is that cop's time is better spent punishing >or preventing crimes that really hurt people. > Meaning that "honest" citizens are free to break any laws that they consider petty because the police should be occupied with more important things. This sounds like the argument used by anyone who has ever received a traffic ticket. >How is a cop's time best spent helping society? Going undercover to stop >a drug importer, or giving out summons to people providing a service >many feel is useful? > How many cops on the beat are qualified to go undercover to stop a drug importer? Besides, a lot of people feel that the drug importer is providing a useful service too. They might even be against Sunday shopping. >Fine. Why does it have to be the same day for everyone? If we can >encourage staggered work hours, why can't we offer staggered work DAYS? > This is a good idea. Unfortunately I have never seen staggered work hours offered for Loblaws employees. (Other than; work Monday this week, then 2 hours a week from Tuesday..:-) How would the public react to a different "day of rest" like in many parts of the US, where stores close Monday? >Business traffic would be less on any given day >if it was spread across more days. > Oops, we aren't worried about business traffic. Offices are free to open on Sunday (as far as I know). How about comparing Saturday traffic to Sunday traffic? Still a big difference, but not in the 5 to 1 margin. >I would welcome the opportunity to do some of my configuration and >installation work on Sunday, when I can bring a client's computer down >for rebooting without bringing the company to a standstill. > Why can't you? >Fine for you. Nothing is preventing you from choosing a job that gives >you Sunday off. > Except if you work in the retail sector you would not have a choice. (The old "work or go under" argument.) I would like to see any further ideas on the alternate day off idea. Would the pro-Sunday shoppers have any objection to the stores all closing on Mondays? -- Kevin Picott aka Socrates aka kpicott%alias@csri.toronto.edu Alias Research Inc. R+D Toronto, Ontario... like, downtown "There can be no offense where none is taken" - Japanese proverb
kpicott%alias@csri.utoronto.ca (Socrates) (12/22/89)
In article <65018@looking.on.ca> brad@looking.on.ca (Brad Templeton) writes: >Do all these arguments justify the immense cost of the forced sunday >closing? Yes, that cost is high. > Actual that cost is imaginary. The dollar "cost" is nothing compared to the human cost of having no time for rest. In the business you and I are in we can pick and choose when we want to rest and when we want to redouble our efforts since we are task-oriented. The retail workers are hour-oriented. They only have time to give and money to gain. Here my prejudices show through in that money<<time. (<< means "worth much less then".) So, where the dollar cost may increase up to 25% as you say (or actually decrease, as Mary Margaret says) the time cost has *definitely* increased by 1/6. (Somebody has to work, people aren't manufactured for the extra day so that much extra time is being used up.) >I wonder how many people are dying in that traffic >to keep stores closed, if you want to ask the emotional question. > Their risk, if you want the cold logical answer. Toronto is a pathological case in regards to any of these issues. How many people are dying in the traffic to keep the stores and offices open during weekdays? Your priorities are capitalism and the efficient use of money. (As opposed to resources, since in real life if there were less parking lots, cashiers, etc.. there would be more stores.) My priority is trying to get people to take a look at how stupid they can all be sometimes and to open their eyes as to where they are going. For this reason the two opposing views can never agree on the issue at hand. Check out my previous article for an attempt at a compromise. -- Kevin Picott aka Socrates aka kpicott%alias@csri.toronto.edu Alias Research Inc. R+D Toronto, Ontario... like, downtown "There can be no offense where none is taken" - Japanese proverb
golchowy@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (Gerald Olchowy) (12/23/89)
In article <690@alias.UUCP> kpicott%alias@csri.utoronto.ca (Socrates) writes: > >I completely and utterly disagree with the assumption that since someone is >forcing you to do something then that thing is necessarily evil. (This is >what I meant by "red herring".) > and in response to the comment: >> >>Funny, but I thought that in a free society, people ought to be able >>to do what they want, as long as it doesn't injure someone else. >> >This sounds more like anarchy to me. With any form of government people are >restricted by the rules of society, whether they agree with them or not. > Sounds pretty totalitarian to me.... If the laws of society are immoral or evil or unjust, I will do my best to change them legally, and if they are offensive enough, through civil disobedience. Obeying evil or immoral laws makes one guilty of evil or immoral behavior. The Nuremburg defense of immoral laws will not work...citizens who obey or support immoral laws are immoral. > Kevin Picott aka Socrates aka kpicott%alias@csri.toronto.edu > Alias Research Inc. R+D Toronto, Ontario... like, downtown > "There can be no offense where none is taken" - Japanese proverb Haven't you ever heard of human rights or individual rights? It is necessarily evil if you or the state force me to do something or not to do something which does not infringe on the rights of others. Sunday shopping does not infringe on your rights at all. The Sunday shopping laws infringe on my individual and human rights a great deal. They are offensive and immoral. -- Gerald Olchowy <golchowy@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca> Chemical Physics Theory Group, Department of Chemistry University of Toronto, Toronto, Ontario M5S 1A1
kpicott%alias@csri.utoronto.ca (Socrates) (12/23/89)
In article <259070BE.2B0F@telly.on.ca> evan@telly.on.ca (Evan Leibovitch) writes: >So what? There are laws that dictate the maximum number of hours you can >be forced to work. If you do Sunday, you'll get another day off. > Forced, yes. Coerced, no. More likely that if you do Sunday you'll get paid and be happy that you are making more. >Think of it another way - people willing to work >Sunday will be more valuable, and probably paid more, than those who >won't. The flexibility is worth something to a store owner, and people >willing to work Sunday will be able to command higher wages. > Sounds like discrimination on the basis of religion to me. To use a popular example- people willing to work without carrying daggers or wearing turbans will bring in more customers (more racists anyway) so they will be able to command higher wages. >Don't fool yourself. The number of people who either work weekends at >the office or bring their work home with them is higher than you may >think. > Not *every* weekend and not at *specific* hours. (I might work 1 hour on one Saturday then 14 the next one depending on what needs to be don.) That's the difference between being task-oriented like in an office, and being hour-oriented, like in a store. >So who's holding a gun to your head to remain a retail worker? > Okay, all retail workers -- get a real job!! You heard it here first. Now when you go out shopping on Saturday and find that the stores are closed because noone works retail you can gather your own food. To answer your question: society. Work retail or starve; simple choice. >I can think of many kinds of stores which would not >open Sundays even if it they could. A place like a Grand & Toy, for >instance, which caters to businesses, would likely find Sundays to be >its quietest days, and stay closed. > >Even if it is true, why can the store not close on its lightest day instead? > I think you missed the point here. The point was that if other stores in the same business opened on Sunday they would draw away enough customers to make it necessary to open on Sunday. >> When a small store of 4 employees is open on Sundays, at least 25% if the >>staff is going to *have* to work Sundays, law or no law. > >So? The person doing that shift gets paid more in return for the sacrifice. >Or brownie points. Or closer to a promotion. I don't know anyone who got >ahead in life by just working 9 to 5. > What if nobody wants to sacrifice their family life? Fire them? Give them a lower pay scale? Not everybody thinks that earning more money is the best way to approach happiness. Once upon a time... >Retail workers who can't stand working on Sundays will look for employment >outside the retail field. Companies who fire workers who don't work >Sundays will find that they just don't have enough workers for the rest >of the week. Retail workers will be harder to find. Pay will increase, >as the Sunday element will make retail workers more scarce (and thus >more valuable) than office personnel. > .. and everyone lives happy ever after. Scenarios like this are well to imagine when justifying your own point of view, but consider the alternatives too. "Retail workers who can't stand working on Sundays will look for employment outside the retail field, but being unqualified will go onto unemployment for a while then finally welfare. Companies who fire workers who don't work Sundays will find that they can pay lower and lower wages as people begin to do anything to hang onto their sole means of support. Retail workers will be easy to manage, being docile to the whim of the employers. Pay will decrease, as the Sunday element will give retail workers less job security than office personnel." Now, a more realistic approximation: "Retail workers who can't stand working on Sundays will swallow their pride and work some Sundays because they can really use the money to support their familys, who are now shopping 7 days a week instead of 6. Companies who fire workers who don't work Sundays will be brought up on charges and will be forced to use coercion to get rid of employees who don't want to work Sundays, or will hire cheap part-time labour for that one day a week. Good retail workers will be harder to find, but part-time workers such as students and homemakers will abound. Pay will decrease, since part-time workers can be paid lower wages and job turnover will be on the order of weeks instead of the current months. >- You don't buy the superior Japanese car, but the inferior American > one because it will keep GM workers from getting laid off; > >- When you buy clothing, you're always willing to pay the premium price for > Canadian goods in order to protect the home lives of our textile workers; > >- You buy lots of fur products, because those hunters have been having a > rough time making a living since the animal rights groups got involved; > >- And, of course, you lobby the government for higher vegetable prices, > to give our farmers a decent living. > A stellar argument for Sunday shopping, if I've ever heard one. Even if it had any relevance you neglect the possibility that he might do all of these things, making this a non-point. What exactly *was* your point here? >My heart bleeds... > (Always wanted to say this) Of course it does, otherwise you wouldn't have any circulation. I am still waiting on a justification for Sunday shopping that isn't laced with the "Me first" attitude. Wake me when one comes. -- Kevin Picott aka Socrates aka kpicott%alias@csri.toronto.edu Alias Research Inc. R+D Toronto, Ontario... like, downtown "There can be no offense where none is taken" - Japanese proverb
mgreen@cs.toronto.edu (?) (12/23/89)
There is no point in arguing point-by-point with someone like Kevin Picott. Stripped of rhetoric, his basic view is that anybody who doesn't think like him is out to destroy society. He is out to impose his on will because, like all authoritarians, he knows what's good for me and everyone else. We're all going to have children and go to church whether like it or not, right Kevin? It's nice to know that there is someone out there looking after us. Kevin's out to relieve our stress and make better citizens of us. He's out to insure that we don't fall into paganism and anarchy. Perhaps he should make a film like "The Day After" which depicts the squalor and dpravity of the world, not the day after a nuclear war, but a day after Sunday shopping. Kevin doesn't care that his views fly in the face of empirical evidence. Everywhere Sunday shopping has been allowed, it has been a huge success, and no one would consider going back to restricted shopping. The vast majority of people simply like it. On the other hand, there is absolutely no empirical evidence that a "day of rest" does any good. Where is the proof that it reduces stress, improves family cohension or provides any other benefits? But Kevin's right - we should give our freedom simply because he knows what's good for us. We would be unreasaonable to ask for proof that our freedoms were being restricted for a good reason. I'm also glad that Kevin wants to stop us from working too hard to get ahead. If Joe is willing to work at the store on Sunday and Fred wants to stay home with the kiddies, it wouldn't be fair because Joe would get the promotions. Kevin reminds me of the resentment my schoolmates had towards the high grades of the Chinese kids, "it's unfair because they study so much." Gee, Kevin, you don't think that the reason those nasty old Japanese, Americans and Brits own so much of the Canadian economy is because they don't worry about whose shopping when or working on weekends? For all of us out here who so desperately need your guidence, thank you, Kevin, on the path of morality and good health. By the way, do you also take confession?
howard@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (Howard Lem) (12/23/89)
Here's my "2 bits worth" on Sunday shopping. I think that a person should be able to buy / sell items whenever they wish. I should be able to purchase items at my leisure. The shopkeeper should be able to set appropriate hours of operation for his establishment. Let's let the marketplace decide on which days a shop will open. If everybody is stays at home on Sunday; then the retailer will get the message and not open. After all it's the market place that has a large say on many other facets of retail operations. Just a thought about going to the other end of the spectrum: :-) EVERYTHING CLOSED. Ya that's it! Just the real essential services have staff available. The only people to work are Hydro, Gas, Phone, Police, Fire, Ambulance, Hospital and other essential workers. Skeleton public transportation on the main routes. WOW! no stores, restaurants, theatres, movie houses, sporting events or media services. Just think of all the families together sitting in their living-rooms enjoying quality time together. I can see it now, everything will be fine until Dad turns on the TV to watch his favourite show and finds himself looking at a blank screen and maybe music in the background. (Sorry Dad TV is non-essential) -- <<<<<<<<<========= ALL Usual disclaimers go here :-) =========>>>>>>>>> Canada Post: Howard Lem - University of Toronto Computing Services 11 King's College Rd., Room 201B
zougas@me.utoronto.ca (Tom Zougas) (12/23/89)
In article <691@alias.UUCP> kpicott%alias@csri.utoronto.ca (Socrates) writes: > >I would like to see any further ideas on the alternate day off idea. Would >the pro-Sunday shoppers have any objection to the stores all closing on >Mondays? What is the point of changing the legislated day off? Monday, Sunday, Thursday? Change for change sake? Tom. -- I can be reached at... zougas@me.utoronto.ca || zougas@me.toronto.edu || ...!utai!me!zougas
moraes@cs.toronto.edu (Mark Moraes) (12/24/89)
I think we might benefit from the "do unto others" approach in this discussion -- yes, it's convenient if the stores were open on Sunday. But it isn't convenient to a lot of people who work in those stores. It's probably bad enough that they have to work evenings/Saturdays. I'm puzzled that most postings on this subject don't seem to consider the fact that schools are closed on weekends, or casually mention it under the "time with family" argument. Won't this complicate schedules for families with children? Especially single parent families? (Daycare already seems to be a major issue, even without weekends factored in) How about families where both parents work in the retail sector? In <89Dec22.171153est.2186@neat.cs.toronto.edu> Marc Green comments (in what I think is a sarcastic tone, based on context): > If Joe is willing to work at the store on Sunday and Fred > wants to stay home with the kiddies, it wouldn't be fair because Joe > would get the promotions. Exactly the problem. Joe (or Jane) may not *have* kiddies. Or, Joe's spouse may not be in the retail sector, so Joe can work Sundays and still have someone be at home with the kiddies. Or Joe may be lucky enough to have daycare that is willing to work weekends. Or Joe's kiddies may be old enough that Joe has the time to work Sundays. The arguments for spreading the load are good ones, however. So how about spreading out the working hours of the population that doesn't work in retail as well? Ensure that everyone has a weekend, but it need not necessarily be Saturday and Sunday? (Perhaps guarantee everyone one of those days off, but not both) Note that this helps the shopping problem as well by distributing the shopping hours of the population. It does it more fairly than by forcing shops to remain closed on Sunday. What, do I hear yowls of anguished rage about giving up precious "family time" now? :-) Not to mention the complications this causes for long-weekends :-):-) Yes, more businesses would have to start going through the time-scheduling headaches that the hospitals, police stations, factories have to go through at present. (Anyone who has ever had to plan a set of schedules where evening, night and weekend shifts will understand how much of a headache this can be. I had to write some code to help someone do this once. Ouch!) I make the side observation that distributing the population's working hours is a natural prelude to even finer-grain load balancing by distributing the working hours of the entire population more widely over 6am to 10pm. (since the hours for what the experts consider quality sleep lie somewhere between 10pm to 6am. I can't seem to find experts agreeing on the time, though:-) The TTC would love this! Yes, I'm aware that I'm talking about the "population" in very cold-blooded calculating terms. That's exactly what a lot of people seem to have been doing when discussing the "retail worker". Mark, who hopes he'll remember these arguments the next time he suddenly needs an XXX widget on a Sunday...
evan@telly.on.ca (Evan Leibovitch) (12/24/89)
In article <7784@cognos.UUCP> stewartw@cognos.UUCP (Stewart Winter) writes: >In article <19425@watdragon.waterloo.edu> daford@watdragon.waterloo.edu (Daniel Ford) writes: >>It will never be possible to "guarantee" a common day off, there are too >>many "critical" jobs. > > I take it that you feel that having "The Bay" open on Sunday is >a critical job. No more or less critical then the neighbourhood McDonald's, the the nearby monster "drugstore", or the wrestling match at Maple Leaf Gardens. All are legally going Sundays. >Or are you just suggesting that all jobs should be >fair game for Sundays. Remember that the job you do might be next. >Would you mind working Sundays now and in the future? Would you like >to be married to someone who works on Sundays? Fair game. Nobody in favour of Sunday shopping can be opposed to working those days if need be. It would be hypocritical to say Sunday isn't a special day concerning shopping, but it is concerning working. > Do you know what most people in stores are doing? I bet you think >they are shopping. Turns out that many of the people who walk into >a store are just there to look around ... basically entertaining >themselves. Has someone told the Bay about this "fact"? On this basis, the stores could qualify immediately for Sunday opening. Entertainment facilities are specifically exempt from the closing laws. Can they use your posting as proof? >The majority of people who would go into a store on >Sunday are not IN NEED. Please provide some proof of why this is more applicable than on any other day of the week. I don't think the major chains want so badly to open Sundays so that the world can just browse... >They would simply find Sunday more convenient. Just about all kinds of shopping offers an element of convenience which could be sacrificed. Taking this to its absurd conclusion, one could argue that stores need be open only one day per week. Anyone who runs out or needs something on one of the other days should plan themselves better. Opening stores on those other six days would only be pandering to the nastiness of the marketplace and its need for that naughty word, convenience. >I would argue that we have plenty of extended shopping hours already. Plenty for you, that is. Maybe those extended hours have caused hardship for some retail workers already. But you don't care, because we haven't crossed YOUR line yet. >The disruption that it causes to families can not be justified by the >extra convenience that would be provided. Before reading this, I thought you had a point based on earlier postings. But this one tells me that you find things OK as long as they don't affect YOUR life, even when they hurt others. Sunday shopping would directly affect you, so you draw the line there. For you and everyone else. And then you have the nerve to accuse Sunday shopping proponents of selfishness and not caring about the hardships their "lust for convenience" may cause to others. You should have stopped when you were ahead. -- Evan Leibovitch, Sound Software, located in beautiful Brampton, Ontario evan@telly.on.ca / uunet!attcan!telly!evan / (416)452-0504 "That's the last time I buy aftershave at a gas station" - Sam Malone
stewartw@cognos.UUCP (Stewart Winter) (12/27/89)
In article <259461EC.6878@telly.on.ca> evan@telly.on.ca (Evan Leibovitch) writes: >In article <7784@cognos.UUCP> stewartw@cognos.UUCP (Stewart Winter) writes: >> Do you know what most people in stores are doing? I bet you think >>they are shopping. Turns out that many of the people who walk into >>a store are just there to look around ... basically entertaining >>themselves. >Has someone told the Bay about this "fact"? In the "Ottawa Citizen" they interviewed people about Sunday shopping. It is astonishing to see how many people said stuff like "I understand how families would like a day off, but we need something to do on Sundays." >On this basis, the stores could qualify immediately for Sunday opening. >Entertainment facilities are specifically exempt from the closing laws. >Can they use your posting as proof? Well, if the primary purpose of shopping was to entertain I suspect we would be charged admission at the door. No the stores are there for another reason. I simply resent losing my family life to people who don't know what else they can do on Sunday. I am more sympathetic for the few shoppers who really need something. >>The majority of people who would go into a store on >>Sunday are not IN NEED. >other day of the week. I don't think the major chains want so badly to >open Sundays so that the world can just browse... This assumes that the major chains want to be open. The Bay wants to be open, but there are many others that do not. The entire Comark chain (contains Olgilvies, Robinsons, Brettons, Clark Shoes, Irene Hill ...) is opposed to Sunday shopping. Many local retail chains in Ottawa (for example Bleekers) are also opposed to Sunday shopping. The malls however do want to be open. The contracts that stores must sign to enter a mall would require those stores located in the malls to be open -- whether they want to or not! >>I would argue that we have plenty of extended shopping hours already. > >Plenty for you, that is. Maybe those extended hours have caused hardship >for some retail workers already. But you don't care, because we haven't >crossed YOUR line yet. I don't disagree with the requirement for some extended shopping hours, but I think some reasonable limits should be put in place. The line has to be drawn somewhere. Malls could conceivably force stores to be open 24 hours per day. Surely this can't be considered a good thing. So where do we draw the line? I think one day off per week is a pretty reasonable line. Yes, this affects me personally, but I'm a consumer too. What this discussion is clearly boiling down to is pro-Sunday shoppers saying "Me, Me, Me." Pro-no-Sunday-shopping people are saying "Me, Me, Me." We are all standing around debating who has the more righteous cause. Consumers are not interested in the minor side effects of Sunday shopping (higher prices and poorer service). Retail families don't care about being able to shop in Sunday. Perhaps the only reasonable way to evaluate this is to find out what the majority of the retailers want. Remember that the action of the majority of the retailers can be dictated by a minority in order to remain competitive. Stewart >You should have stopped when you were ahead. Hopefully this time I have :-) > Evan Leibovitch, Sound Software, located in beautiful Brampton, Ontario -- Stewart Winter Cognos Incorporated S-mail: P.O. Box 9707 VOICE: (613) 738-1338 x3830 FAX: (613) 738-0002 3755 Riverside Drive UUCP: uunet!cognos!stewartw Ottawa, Ontario "The bird for the day is .... nanday conure." CANADA K1G 3Z4
chk@alias.UUCP (C. Harald Koch) (12/28/89)
[ Ok, time to be bipartisan and jump into the fray again: ] In article <25900FAC.1DA4@telly.on.ca> evan@telly.on.ca (Evan Leibovitch) writes: el> If labour laws are strengthened to keep anyone from getting fired 'cause el> they won't work Sunday, then this would be resolved. I don't want anyone el> telling me when my "day of rest" is. What if I want to close Tuesdays el> and open Sundays? Why should the government prevent me from doing this? In article <1989Dec21.050833.8626@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca> golchowy@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (Gerald Olchowy) writes: go> I disagree...the BIG issue is that the state is making laws that go> discriminate on the basis of religion. This should be in violation go> of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. If you don't trust you're go> employer, you don't have to work for him or her...this is a go> free country. In article <1989Dec21.051318.6564@utzoo.uucp> henry@utzoo.uucp (Henry Spencer) writes: hs> Then deal with the problem directly: limit employers' right to insist hs> that people work on Sunday. Don't say stores can't open Sundays, just say hs> that working Sunday can't be a condition of employment for full-time hs> staff. Then the staff who value time off more than extra cash will stay hs> home Sunday, the ones who are desperate for money and would rather work hs> will work, and part-timers will get hired to make up any shortage. Essentially, three different people have said "If you don't want to work Sunday, don't. You don't have to; the law will protect you." It's not that easy. Employers can put an amazing amount of pressure on employees to do things that are unappealing or even illegal. "Do this or you don't get promoted", "Do this or you don't get your Christmas Bonus". Coercion is easy and common in all time related jobs. Even the threat "Do this or you're fired" or "You will do this or we won't hire you" are common. It is easy to come up with a legal excuse to fire someone, particularly in these non-unionized jobs. "She was a slacker" is common. It is easy to come up with legitimate reasons for not hiring someone; "This other person had better qualifications". Furthermore, it is very difficult, if not impossible, to prove that the reason you were fired/not hired is because you wouldn't work Sundays; chances are the victim can't afford legal aid of the same caliber as the employer can, and the common prejudice is that the employee is just trying to "get back at the" employer. "Don't work Sundays if you don't want to" is not a valid rebuttal. If Sunday shopping is legalized, people *WILL* be forced against their wills to work Sundays. -- C. Harald Koch Alias Research, Inc., Toronto ON Canada chk%alias@csri.utoronto.ca chk@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu chk@chk.mef.org "There is no problem, no matter how large or how small, that cannot be solved by a suitable application of high explosives." -Leo Graf, 2298
evan@telly.on.ca (Evan Leibovitch) (12/28/89)
In article <697@alias.UUCP> chk@alias.UUCP (C. Harald Koch) writes: >"Don't work Sundays if you don't want to" is not a valid rebuttal. If Sunday >shopping is legalized, people *WILL* be forced against their wills to work >Sundays. So, of course, the alternative is that other people *ARE* forced, against their will, not to work or shop when they want to. There are supermarkets which are open 24 hours per day. The world has not come to an end. Why has there not been an outcry against coercing people to work 3am? The ONLY difference between forcing people to work 3am and forcing them to work Sunday is that the latter is more popular, and of course, there's the religious factor. Yet one is prohibited and one is wide open. (A related aside: If retail workers are shit upon as much as we're led to believe, why have attempts to unionize them been such dismal failures? A strong retail workers union would be able to deal with this issue in a way which labour laws certainly cannot.) -- Evan Leibovitch, Sound Software, located in beautiful Brampton, Ontario evan@telly.on.ca / uunet!attcan!telly!evan / (416)452-0504 "That's the last time I buy aftershave at a gas station" - Sam Malone
stewartw@cognos.UUCP (Stewart Winter) (12/29/89)
In article <25900FAC.1DA4@telly.on.ca> evan@telly.on.ca (Evan Leibovitch) writes: >In article <1989Dec20.122639.1563@jarvis.csri.toronto.edu> jdd@db.toronto.edu (John DiMarco) writes: >>There's a law which says that stores cannot be open on Sundays (with certain >>exceptions). The police are merely enforcing that law. Don't blame them for >>doing their jobs. >That's not the point. There are lots of laws that get broken each day, >and the politicians (and ranking policemen) get to selectively determine >how to allocate their limited enforcement mechanisms. Each day they make >judgements that some laws need to be enforced more than others. Lots of laws may be broken, but how many other criminals advertise the fact that they are breaking the law. (I can only think of one and will not mention the name to avoid firing up an even more controversial issue). Police and society can not afford to ignore people would flaunt the law. The system quickly loses all respect (what's left of it) when broken laws are ignored. Many stores who would like to be open on Sundays only want to do so legally. If a few people break the law and get away with it, then essentially anarchy takes over. Everyone is forced to break the law to remain competitive. Many retailers don't want to see this situation. As far as drug trafficers, etc go, we are losing one police officer for one day of the week to enforcement of this law in most cities. The enforcement officer placed in charge of this is not of detective status and not likely to be a major player in an 'investigation.' That same officer is walking around in a downtown area of the city and would be available for other emergency duties if required. Doesn't seem very unreasonable to me. By the way, Evan is the only pro-Sunday shopper who has stated that he is willing for all of society to adopt working Sundays. I would certainly be more willing to change my viewpoint if others would honestly do the same. Stewart -- Stewart Winter Cognos Incorporated S-mail: P.O. Box 9707 VOICE: (613) 738-1338 x3830 FAX: (613) 738-0002 3755 Riverside Drive UUCP: uunet!cognos!stewartw Ottawa, Ontario "The bird for the day is .... nanday conure." CANADA K1G 3Z4
stewartw@cognos.UUCP (Stewart Winter) (12/29/89)
In article <65018@looking.on.ca> brad@looking.on.ca (Brad Templeton) writes: >That whole parking lot, all that land, is there to handle that peak >demand. Allow Sunday for shopping, and that peak is almost halved. >The two days in fact, become not a lot more than the evenings. Actually the parking lots serve a dual purpose. They allow retailers to locate their stores set back from the streets with large empty space in front. This enables the consumer to see the stores better and is a big drawing card for the retailers. Also, this can only happen when land is not worth a great deal of money. Downtowns usually are occupied by parking garages rather than large parking lots. If the land those parking lots were on became more valuable it would become developed via mall expansion or new buildings. Stewart -- Stewart Winter Cognos Incorporated S-mail: P.O. Box 9707 VOICE: (613) 738-1338 x3830 FAX: (613) 738-0002 3755 Riverside Drive UUCP: uunet!cognos!stewartw Ottawa, Ontario "The bird for the day is .... nanday conure." CANADA K1G 3Z4
stewartw@cognos.UUCP (Stewart Winter) (12/29/89)
In article <259070BE.2B0F@telly.on.ca> evan@telly.on.ca (Evan Leibovitch) writes: >which day it is. There's nothing special about Sunday. It is for the retail worker. It's the one day of the week he/she knows he/she won't be working. >So who's holding a gun to your head to remain a retail worker? No one. Some of the more qualified ones will leave the business. Just another small price the consumer will pay for convenience. >> It is worth remembering some minor facts. If a store can remain open on a >>Sunday, it almost certainly will *have* to so in order to compete. >Why is this a fact? I can think of many kinds of stores which would not >open Sundays even if it they could. A place like a Grand & Toy, for >instance, which caters to businesses, would likely find Sundays to be >its quietest days, and stay closed. The nearest Grand & Toy is located in mall. Therefore, if the mall is open, they must be open. It's dictated by the contract that they signed to lease space in the mall. More and more stores are being located in malls. That's why it is a fact. >Even if it is true, why can the store not close on its lightest day instead? Mall contracts ... must be open every day. Arguments suggesting that the majority of stores can remain closed on a different day if Sunday shopping is permitted are simply bogus. They don't hold up to close scrutiny. Stewart -- Stewart Winter Cognos Incorporated S-mail: P.O. Box 9707 VOICE: (613) 738-1338 x3830 FAX: (613) 738-0002 3755 Riverside Drive UUCP: uunet!cognos!stewartw Ottawa, Ontario "The bird for the day is .... nanday conure." CANADA K1G 3Z4
kpicott%alias@csri.utoronto.ca (Socrates) (12/29/89)
In article <89Dec22.171153est.2186@neat.cs.toronto.edu> mgreen@cs.toronto.edu (?) writes: > >[reams of ad-hominem attacks which have nothing to do with the issue] > I will concede one point to the afore-mentioned article. There is no point in arguing with me point by point. I like to look at the bigger picture. (Something like pointing out to an artist that brush stroke 257 and 1100 were poorly executed on his latest painting.) Aside from that I cannot understand two things: - how my opinion voiced in type on a public network suddenly became promoted to "forcing my views on others". - how the two points of view really differ from one another in any fundamental way I admit I like to play the Devil's advocate, if only to make people think about what they are saying. If this causes confusion and sounds like preaching I apologize, this is not the way it is meant. My concern is that this network has a very small percentage of retail workers and they are the ones to be most profoundly affected by Sunday shopping laws. Their side should be heard as well. Every retail worker or spouse of a retail worker that has posted on this issue has expressed adamant opposition. For the record: - I am not religious and do not attend church of any sort - I do not work in retail, although most of my friends/family do - I do all of my shopping whenever it occurs to me, and sometimes it occurs to me on Sundays - I fully believe in working harder to get ahead, but I do not believe in forcing someone to work hard just to make a living - For the above reason I support Sunday shopping if it can be regulated properly. (No, I don't believe regulation of businesses to prevent unfair practices is immoral or violating anyones rights.) - I do not believe that anyone working on an hourly basis ever got "ahead" in life by putting in more hours. Those that succeed do so by putting in more hours on a special service, product development, or something of this nature. (But they are free to work the extra hours if they choose, by the previous item.)
tjhorton@ai.toronto.edu ("Timothy J. Horton") (12/29/89)
zougas@me.utoronto.ca (Tom Zougas) writes: >What is the point of changing the legislated day off? Monday, Sunday, >Thursday? Change for change sake? Sarcasm for sarcasm sake? Or provincialism for provincialism sake? Evidently you are talking about "the legislated day off" as applies principly to the retail sales sector? Isn't the idea simple? The vast majority don't earn their living as retail salespeople and cannot do shopping on Sunday, which constitutes 1/2 of the usual time they have to do much anything each week. If the vast majority maintained their current Saturday-Sunday weekend, as they have without any prohibition to do otherwise, and the legislation on days of shopping allowed flexibility or at least some other day of the week as a the retail day off, everyone would get as many days off, the vast majority wouldn't be constrained from living during half their free lives, and there would be a lot less aggravation for the whole. That would be responsible, wouldn't it? If a day were required but left flexible, who does not suppose it would find it's own way to Monday for the most part, when the vast majority are back at work and unable to make use of the retail sector's time, having had 2 full days to put their needs in order? Who does not suppose that plenty of stores and businesses would not bother moving their day, competetiveness bedamned, as is the case now for plenty of businesses not regulated by such laws? At any rate, if the primary concern is time off, what is the point in restricting that time off, for the far greater majority, by stopping them from doing some of the most usual things to do with it? And who, other than our own self-styled Socrates thinks that what we really want is to worship our dollars all day in an apocolyptic frenzy of grubby consumerism? Anybody ever try to help a pent up grandmother get about to do as she needs? It can consume a Saturday faster than anything known to man. Anybody ever want to have a BBQ on a nice sunday afternoon and wish there was a place to get some steaks? The one day of the week you can do something distinctly relaxing or out of the ordinary, you're stuck. Anybody ever try to work on the house or go shopping for school clothes? Is it all "Money before Time"? The only valid point that I have heard made here relates to the "common time off" argument, as applies to families with members working in the retail sector (and more importantly, to families with 2 working parents, one of which works in the retail sector, and would be forced to work different days -- an interesting special interest group, though I once came across an address for "Toronto Lesbian Daughters of Survivors of the Jewish Holocaust" once which put my ideas on the limits of an interest group to shame). Well, what are the costs to the rest of us? Are the current cost-benefit tradeoffs so obviously tilted in favour of the current situation? And it was once the general case that one member of each family was not tied to the Monday-Friday workweek, and did a great deal of the shopping. Hasn't some of that changed, even if a few people still think that that, too, was change for change sake?
zougas@me.utoronto.ca (Tom Zougas) (12/30/89)
Someone had brought up the point about malls forcing stores to open. I know (for a fact) that the TD Center _forces_ some of its stores to be open on Saturday. Saturday is the slowest day for a mall located in the basement of a downtown office tower. Extending this to what would happen if Sunday shopping were allowed completely: stores located in malls (and we all know that malls are the backbone of urban life :-) would be forced to open on Sundays, even if the owners wanted them closed. This is not giving the store-owner the freedom of selling his wares when he feels like it. As a matter of fact if business is slow on forced days of opening, the owner will be forced to raise prices to compensate for the overhead. So what do people, who believe in freedom of opening whenever one desires, think about this forced opening. Notice that it is now the employer who is being made to do something (possibly) against his/her will, rather than the employee. Tom. -- I can be reached at... zougas@me.utoronto.ca || zougas@me.toronto.edu || ...!utai!me!zougas
golchowy@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (Gerald Olchowy) (12/30/89)
In article <1989Dec29.113120.6892@me.toronto.edu> zougas@me.utoronto.ca (Tom Zougas) writes: > >So what do people, who believe in freedom of opening whenever one desires, >think about this forced opening. Notice that it is now the employer who is >being made to do something (possibly) against his/her will, rather than >the employee. > >Tom. He is free not to agree to a contract that forces him to open on Sunday. The employee whose employer is forcing him (or her) to work on Sunday doesn't have to work for that employer. The retail shop owner who doesn't want to open on Sunday doesn't have to locate his shop in a mall which requires stores to open on Sunday. That is what is called freedom.... If a mall owners is able to find tenants who are willing to be open 7 days per week, 24 hr. per day, more power to them. If they can't they'll change their tune. -- Gerald Olchowy <golchowy@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca> Chemical Physics Theory Group, Department of Chemistry University of Toronto, Toronto, Ontario M5S 1A1
mart@csri.toronto.edu (Mart Molle) (12/30/89)
In article <1989Dec29.113120.6892@me.toronto.edu> zougas@me.utoronto.ca (Tom Zougas) writes: >Someone had brought up the point about malls forcing stores to open. >I know (for a fact) that the TD Center _forces_ some of its stores >to be open on Saturday. Saturday is the slowest day for a mall located >in the basement of a downtown office tower. > >Extending this to what would happen if Sunday shopping were allowed >completely: stores located in malls (and we all know that malls >are the backbone of urban life :-) would be forced to open on Sundays, >even if the owners wanted them closed. This is not giving the store-owner >the freedom of selling his wares when he feels like it. Ummm, well, wouldn't the store owner have the option of moving his business elsewhere (to a location where Sunday is either a sufficiently busy to justify opening, or one that doesn't force him/her to open...)? Again, this is an example of a short-term transient. The mall owner will have to contend with a drop in rental rates when it comes time to renew all those leases (if the merchants don't want/can't afford to open on Sundays) because of the law of supply (of space, which is fixed) and demand (which varies, depending on how badly the merchants want to open a store in that mall). Notice that there is nothing stopping the mall owner from asking for a rent increase even without changing the shopping hours IF THE MARKET WILL SUPPORT IT; you can bet the mall owners who choose *not* to open on Sunday would raise their rents to compensate for the "advantage" of "less overhead" (or be forced to drop their rates if Sunday turned out to be a "good" day...). And, even if Sunday shopping is never approved, those mall owners will happily raise their rates to what they think they could have gotten for "closed on Sundays" space under the wide-open shopping system-- after all, what's stopping them? > As a matter of fact >if business is slow on forced days of opening, the owner will be forced >to raise prices to compensate for the overhead. I don't get it. Are you suggesting that there is some unwritten code of ethics in business that says you set your prices as X% of cost (X > 100), no matter what? You set your prices so as to maximize your profits. If raising prices would increase your profits (to "compensate for the overhead"), what's keeping you from raising them *now*, and just pocketing the increase? Go look up "elastic" and "inelastic" demand in an economics book, or -- better yet -- go read "Don't Get Taken Every Time: The Insider's Guide to Buying a Car" by Remar Sutton. This is a free market, not rent-control: sellers make decisions based on what they think is best for them, and not what is "right" according to somebody else's metric. Mart L. Molle Computer Systems Research Institute University of Toronto Toronto, Canada M5S 1A4 (416)978-4928
zougas@me.utoronto.ca (Tom Zougas) (12/30/89)
In article <1989Dec29.123430.15786@jarvis.csri.toronto.edu> mart@csri.toronto.edu (Mart Molle) writes: > >Ummm, well, wouldn't the store owner have the option of moving his business >elsewhere (to a location where Sunday is either a sufficiently busy to justify >opening, or one that doesn't force him/her to open...)? Again, this is an >example of a short-term transient. ... I was considering the scenario where _all_ locations were forcing Sunday opening. This is a possible long-term case. >I don't get it. Are you suggesting that there is some unwritten code of ethics >in business that says you set your prices as X% of cost (X > 100), no matter >what? You set your prices so as to maximize your profits. If raising prices >would increase your profits (to "compensate for the overhead"), what's keeping >you from raising them *now*, and just pocketing the increase? ... Then why do 7-11's charge more than your average variety store? Are they pocketing the extra cash, or are they compensating for the additional convenience of being open 24 hrs, 7 days a week? I'm not trying to be facetious. I'm just trying to understand the situation. Tom. -- I can be reached at... zougas@me.utoronto.ca || zougas@me.toronto.edu || ...!utai!me!zougas
mart@csri.toronto.edu (Mart Molle) (12/30/89)
In article <1989Dec29.171844.13290@me.toronto.edu> zougas@me.utoronto.ca (Tom Zougas) writes: > >I was considering the scenario where _all_ locations were forcing Sunday >opening. This is a possible long-term case. It is an unlikely scenario, unless there is legislation *forcing* stores to open on Sundays. I've lived in the California where Sunday shopping is common, and it is far from universal. Many but not all department stores are open on Sundays, for example. And, in particular, some merchants make a point of *not* being open a lot-- there's an outfit called "Four Day Tire Stores" that makes it a feature that they are only open 40 hours per week to save you money (just one shift, no overtime...); I think their "40 most efficient hours" are 8-4 Wed -> Sat. As for *all* locations forcing Sunday opening: (1) you could rent a store front on Bloor and keep whatever hours you like, (2) you could put your store in a Bay Street bank tower, where you too can keep bankers hours, and (3) I can get out my calculator and figure out that there's a savings in utilities and security personnel if I close my mall on Sunday and try offering you a lower rent to lure you to move your store there. I wrote: >> Are you suggesting that there is some unwritten code of ethics >>in business that says you set your prices as X% of cost (X > 100), no matter >>what? You set your prices so as to maximize your profits. If raising prices >>would increase your profits (to "compensate for the overhead"), what's keeping >>you from raising them *now*, and just pocketing the increase? ... > >Then why do 7-11's charge more than your average variety store? Are they >pocketing the extra cash, or are they compensating for the additional >convenience of being open 24 hrs, 7 days a week? I'm not trying to be >facetious. I'm just trying to understand the situation. The 7-11's charge more for the additional convenience of being open 24hrs/day WHEN THEY HAVE LESS COMPETITION. They either can't figure out how to make their prices functions of the time of day (so they could compete with Loblaws at normal hours) or don't feel they would benefit enough from the extra sales to compensate for the bad feelings (i.e., ``You mean this jar of pickles would have been a dollar cheaper if I had come an hour ago?''). Hence their prices are set to balance off the loss of daytime sales (when people are very price sensitive) versus the "easy gouging" that can happen at night (when people are not price sensitive). Many businesses do manage to adjust prices in response to people's willingness to pay (cf. pre-christmas vs. boxing day prices for gift wrap), but only a few have figured out how to do it as a function of the time of day, notably mass transit systems (but not the TTC) and movie theatres (but, alas, not in Toronto again) that charge less for matinees.... Mart L. Molle Computer Systems Research Institute University of Toronto Toronto, Canada M5S 1A4 (416)978-4928
brad@looking.on.ca (Brad Templeton) (12/30/89)
Yes sir, the mall *forces* the shopkeeper to open Saturday. They go into her home with armed troops, kidnap her family and force her to open a store in their mall, then at gunpoint, they make her sign a merchant agreement that states the store has to open when the mall is open. But this is not what happens. The shopkeepers *beg* to get into the malls, sign deals and pay high rates. Why? Because we (Canadian shoppers) like to shop at those malls. This *force* is the ring of the cash register bell, something the shopkeeper is glad to be forced to hear. You want sunday shopping banned? You think you have the majority of Canadian opinion behind you? Then let the stores do what they want, and don't shop. Believe me, if 50% of the population refused to shop on a given day, you can bet that a lot of stores would not open. -- Brad Templeton, ClariNet Communications Corp. -- Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473
mart@csri.toronto.edu (Mart Molle) (12/30/89)
In many articles, everybody debates the pros and cons of Sunday shopping, whether we have the right to do it, whether it is right to do it, ad nauseum. So how about the following (not entirely tongue-in-cheek) compromise. Following the moral leadership the government has shown wrt other Bad Things (namely tobacco products and alcohol), why not a new "sin tax" that is only collected on goods and services bought on Sunday. The pro's get to buy the widgets they need to fix Junior's bike (but at a price), and con's are smug in the knowledge that the government will punish people (and businesses -- they have to figure out how to collect it) for doing it where it counts -- in their wallet. The government looks like it's trying to do the right thing to both sides, all the while gathering up windfall profits (better them than some greedy merchant, eh?) to pay off the national debt, buy a fleet of nuclear subs and keep VIA going will into the next millenium... :-) Seriously, though, it seems like a more workable scheme than the present one (i.e., you can't open today and earn big bucks from those bored/desperate people unless you meet some arbitrary rules wrt. type of business, size and location). Furthermore, if Sunday shopping is a Bad Thing, then it provides something tangible (other than Big Brother saying "you can't do that") that affects both customers and merchants (why should *they* get punished if they try to sell *me* something on a Sunday, but I don't?). Also, regarding its (negative?) effect on tourism. First, if it isn't set at too high a rate, it might make things better than now (where you can't count on buying a souvenier bottle of maple syrup at any price...). Second, it is already the case that visitors can apply to get their provincial sales tax refunded after they get home, if they hold on to their receipts. I don't remember the details, but my mother in law (from California) found out about it before a visit last year. Thus, the same forms ought to "solve" the tourist problem for the "Sunday shopping tax". I wonder what level of taxation would be needed to get the "right" effect... Mart L. Molle Computer Systems Research Institute University of Toronto Toronto, Canada M5S 1A4 (416)978-4928
evan@telly.on.ca (Evan Leibovitch) (12/31/89)
In article <1989Dec29.231135.20412@jarvis.csri.toronto.edu> mart@csri.toronto.edu (Mart Molle) writes: >So how about the following (not entirely tongue-in-cheek) compromise. >Following the moral leadership the government has shown wrt other Bad Things >(namely tobacco products and alcohol), why not a new "sin tax" that is only >collected on goods and services bought on Sunday. I suppose the PST could be raised a percent or two on Sundays. The mechanisms wouldn't be too difficult to implement. And while I'm not really in favour of it, I could live with it as a compromise. Frankly, I'm a little surprised by all this. The anti Sunday shopping folk appear needlessly worried that all malls, all stores, all retail workers will be pressed into working Sundays. Frankly, after the initial roar dies down, I don't think there'll be enough business to keep all of them open. Some malls will be open Sundays. Some won't. Some types of stores (like stereo or furniture shops) appear likely to do it, but they usually make strange hours anyway, and aren't generally located in malls. On the other hand, I don't see specialty clothing shops or car dealerships opening Sundays, even if it's legal. As for the malls imposing hours on stores, usually that's a policy that reflects either an 'image' that a mall wants to project, or the will of the store owners being imposed on a few stragglers. Many malls choose this kind of thing through a board made up of store owners, so I can't see a mall opening Sunday if a significant number of stores don't want it. A mall which pisses off its major tenants won't be successful for long. Perhaps in the short term every store will think it's necessary, 'cause they have no idea how much potential business there is. But if, as the anti-Sunday proponents suggest, many people value their day together and won't spend it shopping, then some stores won't see it that profitable and the pendulum will swing closer to the middle. I remember some time back, that Bramalea City Centre ran a flea market, getting around the Sunday laws by charging admission to the mall and calling it "amusement". They invited various local charities to collect the admission providing they could supply enough volunteers to staff each entrance. It didn't last, but not because of the law. The amount of Sunday business over the long term (not just around Xmas), didn't justify it. It's not a coincidence that the major retailers' annual poker game with governments over Sunday shopping happens each Christmas. Do you really think it'll be profitable for the Bay to open Sundays during February? I doubt it. Many malls extend hours before Christmas, (ie. till 10 each night), then reduce them again afterwards. Certainly the retail workers' reluctance to put in extra hours is balanced by the desire for more spending money that time of the year. I think if Sunday shopping is allowed, many stores might take advantage of it during the crunch season, but not bother the rest of the year. Can this be such a bad thing? -- Evan Leibovitch, Sound Software, located in beautiful Brampton, Ontario evan@telly.on.ca / uunet!attcan!telly!evan / (416)452-0504 "That's the last time I buy aftershave at a gas station" - Sam Malone
zougas@me.utoronto.ca (Tom Zougas) (12/31/89)
In article <259CE18B.5769@telly.on.ca> evan@telly.on.ca (Evan Leibovitch) writes: >I suppose the PST could be raised a percent or two on Sundays. The >mechanisms wouldn't be too difficult to implement. And while I'm not >really in favour of it, I could live with it as a compromise. So could I. > >Perhaps in the short term every store will think it's necessary, 'cause >they have no idea how much potential business there is. But if, as the >anti-Sunday proponents suggest, many people value their day together and ...which is precluded if one of them is working >won't spend it shopping, then some stores won't see it that profitable >and the pendulum will swing closer to the middle. ...resulting in a status quo which is above all, fair to each and every individual in this great land of ours :-) > [a description of the Bramalea City Centre flea market] > >It didn't last, but not because of the law. The amount of Sunday business >over the long term (not just around Xmas), didn't justify it. Don't forget that Flea Market can be equated with Garage Sale. Otherwise, it is not a Flea Market. I don't deny that forcing a store to be closed on Sunday is unfair to the store owner. But until I can be sure that spending a day off with my family will not be hindered by Sunday shopping how can I support Sunday openings? (My wife works in retail) Tom. p.s. I used to work in a restaurant and found that with waiter's hours I socialized with other restaurant staff exclusively. Forget about spending a day with anyone who was not a waiter/ress, including my family. I had to work Sundays or I didn't work. No law protected me. -- I can be reached at... zougas@me.utoronto.ca || zougas@me.toronto.edu || ...!utai!me!zougas
gerry@tvcent.uucp (Gerry Singleton) (12/31/89)
In article <697@alias.UUCP> chk@alias.UUCP (C. Harald Koch) writes: >[ Ok, time to be bipartisan and jump into the fray again: ] > >In article <25900FAC.1DA4@telly.on.ca> evan@telly.on.ca (Evan Leibovitch) writes: [arguements deleted] > >In article <1989Dec21.050833.8626@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca> golchowy@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (Gerald Olchowy) writes: > [more arguments deleted] > >In article <1989Dec21.051318.6564@utzoo.uucp> henry@utzoo.uucp (Henry Spencer) writes: > [more arguments deleted] > C. Harald Koch argues: > >Essentially, three different people have said "If you don't want to work [long discussion removed] >"Don't work Sundays if you don't want to" is not a valid rebuttal. If Sunday >shopping is legalized, people *WILL* be forced against their wills to work >Sundays. > This last line caught my eye. With businesses wanting to open Sundays and our social services damn near crippled, perhaps businesses could recruit via the various social service agencies. This would provide those accepting social assistance with both honest employment and an opportunity to become productive tax paying members of society while releasing funds for more housing, et cetera. Besides I think business is obliged to provide this type of opportunity it only in self-interest. ger -- -- G. Roderick Singleton, System Administrator { lethe | suncan | geac | jtsv16 | tvcent }!eclectic!gerry "ALL animals are created equal, BUT some animals are MORE equal than others."
brad@looking.on.ca (Brad Templeton) (12/31/89)
I thought of that extra tax idea as a compromise as well, but didn't propose it because in the end I doubt it is what we want. First of all, there is the religion problem. Jews would like to open Sunday and be closed during the Sabbath. It is not fair to them that the tax apply to Sunday. You would have to make it a "weekend tax" to be charged if a store wants to open both days of the weekend -- but what a mess. Finally, I am against higher taxes of any sort. We pay far too many as it is. So you might say, would you accept 12% on Sunday if the regular rate dropped to 7% on weekdays -- ie. revenue neutral? Problem with this is that it drives the big ticket items out of the Sunday business. Who's going to buy that $500 TV on Sunday if it's $475 on monday? The small ticket items might be ok, but then, who knows. To borrow a phrase from Bush, "no new taxes." Please. -- Brad Templeton, ClariNet Communications Corp. -- Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473
tjhorton@ai.toronto.edu ("Timothy J. Horton") (01/04/90)
The president of A&P today announced closure of several stores, and plans for several more closures if Sunday opening laws in Ontario remain way they are. The reason, he says, is that people are crossing the American border on weekends, and he can't possible compete anywhere near the border. People are voting with their feet, in droves. ... All those compromises that were mentioned won't work near borders. Even so, I think Mart Molle's idea of a Sunday opening sin tax is appealing where people are not crossing borders; it could even the playing field for stores that don't want to stay open, it appeals to the religious righteousness in our province, it would be very hard for any group to argue effectively against, and it might provide more govt revenue as needed to help stop our burgeoning socialist agendas from killing us. Just think, nobody would have to pay the tax that didn't really want to. And yet it might bring in a killing. What a tax!
peterm@robohack.UUCP (Peter Marshall) (01/05/90)
In article <90Jan3.133311est.10773@ephemeral.ai.toronto.edu> tjhorton@ai.toronto.edu ("Timothy J. Horton") writes: > The president of A&P today announced closure of several stores, and plans > for several more closures if Sunday opening laws in Ontario remain way they > are. The reason, he says, is that people are crossing the American border > on weekends, and he can't possible compete anywhere near the border. People > are voting with their feet, in droves. > > ... > > All those compromises that were mentioned won't work near borders. Even so, > I think Mart Molle's idea of a Sunday opening sin tax is appealing where people > are not crossing borders; it could even the playing field for stores that don't > want to stay open, it appeals to the religious righteousness in our province, > it would be very hard for any group to argue effectively against, and it might > provide more govt revenue as needed to help stop our burgeoning socialist > agendas from killing us. Just think, nobody would have to pay the tax that > didn't really want to. And yet it might bring in a killing. What a tax! >... > For my family Sunday Shopping has nothing to do with sin, it has to do > with necessity. Both my children are ashmatic and often need medication > at inopprotune times (like Sunday). There is a store that opens on Sunday > now, but will be forced to close (due to square footage laws). This > store supplies Ventolin at the lowest price in town. Don't talk to me > about 'sin'. It's my families health you're messing with. The whole > question of Sunday Shopping is a question of priviledge; if you do the > right things our goverment gives the priviledge to sell, or shop on Sun- > day. If I work hard and make lots of money I have the priviledge to > wander down to Mirvish Village and buy a $5000.00 work of art on a Sun- > day. But if I don't make enough money and need my son or daughter's > medication at the best price I am denied the priviledge. -- -- Peter Marshall
gords@cognos.UUCP (Gord Smith) (01/08/90)
I'm not sure which one wrote the quoted text, as the entire article appeared with attribution marks beside it (that wouldn't get past our news program!) In article <1990Jan5.052756.25431@robohack.UUCP> peterm@robohack.UUCP (Peter Marshall) writes: >In article <90Jan3.133311est.10773@ephemeral.ai.toronto.edu> tjhorton@ai.toronto.edu ("Timothy J. Horton") writes: >> For my family Sunday Shopping has nothing to do with sin, it has to do >> with necessity. Both my children are ashmatic and often need medication >> at inopprotune times (like Sunday). There is a store that opens on Sunday >> now, but will be forced to close (due to square footage laws). This >> store supplies Ventolin at the lowest price in town. Don't talk to me >> about 'sin'. It's my families health you're messing with. The whole >> question of Sunday Shopping is a question of priviledge; if you do the >> right things our goverment gives the priviledge to sell, or shop on Sun- >> day. If I work hard and make lots of money I have the priviledge to >> wander down to Mirvish Village and buy a $5000.00 work of art on a Sun- >> day. But if I don't make enough money and need my son or daughter's >> medication at the best price I am denied the priviledge. #define FLAME_ON Speaking as an asthmatic, if one doesn't keep a reasonable supply of Ventolin handy, one is stupider than the politicians that run this place. If this place is a drug store (which I assume it is) I agree that it should be deemed 'essential' and able to open on Sundays. However, the argument you're using is ludicrous. You should know to keep an adequate supply of Ventolin on hand. If by some quirk you run out (lose the inhaler, etc.), go to a (more expensive) drug store that's open! When you're having an asthma attack, money just doesn't seem very important, believe me. Why can't you make sure on Saturday that you have enough medication for at least one more day? There is an upper bound on how much Ventolin you can take before risking death. I get a new inhaler the first time mine misfires. You don't mess around with your (or someone else's) life. #undef FLAME_ON Sorry for the flame, but this is the lamest argument I've seen on this topic yet. -- D. Gordon Smith Voice: (613) 738-1338 ext 6118 P.O. Box 9707 Cognos Incorporated FAX: (613) 738-0002 3755 Riverside Dr. uucp: gords@cognos.uucp || uunet!mitel!sce!cognos!gords Ottawa, Ontario "I bumped into Brewer's Retail 24 times!" - D. Prosser CANADA K1G 3Z4