human-nets@ucbvax.ARPA (10/18/84)
From: Charles McGrew (The Moderator) <Human-Nets-Request@Rutgers>
HUMAN-NETS Digest Wednesday, 17 Oct 1984 Volume 7 : Issue 62
Today's Topics:
Administrivia - Famous Bugs List,
Query - Organizing a Database,
Computer Networks - Home Banking &
56KB Home Data Service (2 msgs),
Computers and People - Electronic Democracy &
Electronic Publishing &
Unions/Working at Home (2 msgs)
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From: Charles <mcgrew@rutgers>
Date: 17 Oct 1984 23:00:00-EDT
Subject: Programming Mistakes
Re: references for the DO10I=1.20 mistake..
In <mcgrew.human-nets>famous.bugs is the often-asked for list of famous
programming boo-boos. You can FTP the file using login name
anonymous, and any password.
Charles
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Date: Tue 16 Oct 84 22:22:46-EDT
From: Drew Anderson <Drew.Anderson@CMU-CS-C.ARPA>
I saw a similar message to this on human-nets, so I'll assume
this is the place ask such a question.
I have the task of organizing a thermodynamic data-base and
utilities program. The data-base is to contain about a million (no
exaggeration ). empirical thermodynamic constants for most metallic
and organic elements/compounds known to man. The accompanying program
will have to read in a given chemical reaction, search the data-base
for the necessary empirical thermodynamic data, and then calculate
common thermodynamic values such as reaction free energy, enthalpy,
and entropy. I also hope to tie in a graphics interface such that
answer can be portrayed graphically as a function of ambient
conditions ( such as temperature ), or numerically. If anyone has
heard of any work related to this type of project ( I've heard rumors
of such systems existing at McGill University in Canada ), or have any
information that might help me, it would greatly appreciated. Send
replies to : DDA@CMU-CS-C.ARPA
David B. Love c/o DDA@CMU-CS-C.ARPA
Carnegie-Mellon University
Department of Metallurgical
Engineering and Material Sciences
Pittburgh, PA 15213
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Date: 16 Oct 1984 1510-PDT
From: Rem@IMSSS
Subject: Worldnet today - home banking via computer-modems
This afternoon I got a demo of Bank of America's home banking, which
is available via several kinds of modem (I tried Bell 103a and Bell
212a, both of which worked perfectly). Jim from BoA called me as a
followup from last winter when I inquired about home banking but
didn't decide to give it a real try. He didn't know anything about
different modems (never heard of Bell 103 or 212 or 202 or Vadic), so
he gave me the demo dialup number and today's password and let me give
it a try. Test-customer dials 800-238-9999 (might be a California-only
number, don't know), wait for modem connection, press return, wait for
it to ask or password, etc. It always prints out a menu when entering
a new mode, and when I got lost and typed ? it gave me help. It even
allows sending electronic mail to their office, although lines are
only 35 characters long in messages.
Perhaps Jim will let some more of you give it a try. Call 800-652-1111
(I don't know whether this number too is California only) and ask for
Jim.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 84 16:06:38 pdt
From: <hplabs!bragvax!david@Berkeley>
>> From: redford%shorty.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (John Redford)
>> and some
>> maniacs at Bell Labs have even been able to fit 9600 baud into the
>> 3.5 kHz phone bandwidth. At 9600 baud every cycle that goes out
>> has to carry three bits, so you're talking about serious
>> modulation trickery.
It looks like the AT&T Ministry of Truth has been stuffing leaflets
into John Redford's mailbox -- what did Bell Labs have to do with the
development of 9600 baud voice-grade modems? Does AT&T even sell one?
David DiGiacomo, BRAG Systems Inc., San Mateo CA (415) 342-3963
(...decvax!ucbvax!hplabs!bragvax!david)
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Date: Tue, 16-Oct-84 15:35:13 PDT
From: Lauren Weinstein <vortex!lauren@RAND-UNIX.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Cost of 56KB home data service
To: CharlieLevy.es@XEROX
It's not the backbone that's the main expense as far as customers as
concerned, but rather the local CO costs and local distribution costs.
It's unclear, given the current state of the universe, how much these
can really be reduced. Note also that there are various legislative
thrusts now underway to raise the price for most data services in an
attempt to keep ordinary local service from shooting through the roof.
These new legislative actions will effect all carriers, not just AT&T,
so the opportunity for undercutting will gradually diminish over the
next few years.
--Lauren--
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Date: Tue, 16 Oct 84 01:47:57 PDT
From: David Booth <booth@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA>
Subject: Electronic Democracy proposal
Electronic Democracy: What Is It? What Could It Be?
Widespread availability of computers and electronic communication
holds great potential for improving our self-governance. The purpose
of this message is to solicit ideas of how this potential might be
used to improve our existing system of government, or as a cornerstone
in a completely new and better system of government.
We seem to know so little about different possible systems of
government, but government being so serious, it's difficult to
experiment with it. Nonetheless, experiments starting on the small
scale are possible and should be tried, with a view to scaling them up
if they're successful.
Electing Representatives: Choosing the Lessor of Two Evils
The system of electing a representative always ends up as a choice
between two candidates. But since the population includes a whole
spectrum of political views, whichever candidate is elected truly
represents only a small fraction of the population. As voters, we
inherently end up choosing between the lessor of two evils at election
time.
Eliminate Elected Representatives?
I propose that when the house or senate brings a bill up for vote, the
entire population gets to vote on it, rather than just the house and
senate members. The house and senate members would still be elected
to write the bills and bring them up for votes. We now (or will soon)
have the technological ability to implement this.
The prospect of everyone voting several times a day immediately brings
up two problems: (1) very few have the time to vote on every issue;
(2) very few have the knowledge to vote intelligently on every issue.
But suppose you could, in advance, give your vote to someone else --
anyone else -- who you thought was more qualified and would vote on
all the issues for you? At any time you could give someone the power
to cast your vote (i.e act as your proxy), or you could revoke this
power and vote yourself.
A Proxy System
Anyone could be a proxy. This would allow each one of us to select
our representation just as descriminately as we want. And proxies
could be paid based on how many people they actually represented on
the votes. This would allow professional proxies, who could make it
their sole job to be informed on the issues.
Proxies would be prohibited from buying people's votes, of course.
Since votes would have to be bought on the large scale to have any
impact, forcing vote-buying underground would eliminate the problem.
Questions
Is the proposed system inherently flawed? How could it be improved?
What other system might be better, and why?
Could the members of the house and senate also be eliminated? How
could bills be introduced without them? Could the PRESIDENT be
eliminated?
Again, the purpose of this message is to stimulate ideas.
-- David Booth
{sdcrdcf,ihnp4,trwspp,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!booth booth@ucla-locus.ARPA
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Date: 15-Oct-84 14:10 PDT
From: Kirk Kelley <KIRK.TYM@OFFICE-2.ARPA>
Subject: Re: AILIST as a source of info....
To: AIList@SRI-AI
Cc: Lutins@RU-BLUE.ARPA
From: Allen <Lutins@RU-BLUE.ARPA>
Many recent AILIST discussions have fascinated me, and I'm sure
that at some point in the near future I'll be using information
presented here for a paper or two. Just exactly how do I credit an
electronic bboard in a research paper? And who (i.e. moderator,
author of info, etc.) do I give credit to?
This reminds me of Ithiel de Sola Pool's lament in note 8 to a
paragraph in his chapter on electronic publishing in Technologies of
Freedom (Belknap Harvard 1983):
"... The character of electronic publishing is illustrated by the
problem of citing the information in this paragraph, which came
from these interest group exchanges themselves. Shall I cite the
Arpanet list as from Zellich at Office-3?"
I am NOT an expert on obscure citations, so I can freely throw out the
following suggestion using Allen Lutins' original query for an
example. "12345" would be the message ID if any had been provided:
Lutins, Allen, "AILIST as a source of info...." message 12345 of
14 Oct 1984
19:56 EDT, Lutins@RU-BLUE.ARPA or AIList Digest, V2 #138, 15 Oct
1984, AIList@SRI-AI.ARPA.
-- kirk
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From: mcb%lll-tis.arpa@lll-tis (Michael C. Berch)
Date: Sun Oct 14 19:48:23 1984
Subject: Home work & freedom of choice
To me, the issue isn't whether computer (and other) home work is a
good idea or not, but rather whether it is the proper function of
government to "protect" people from it regardless of their feelings
about it. Since we have based our fundamental American institutions on
the principle that people who are over the age of majority, of sound
mind, and free of duress ought to be able to make their own choices,
why do we need laws to make the choice for them?
Even if the concerns raised about erosion of childcare programs,
enforced piecework, and so forth are valid (and I happen to think they
are not) it still doesn't justify banning home work for the 99% of
workers who would treat it as a positive development.
Frankly, it smacks of totalitarianism to me. I'm just glad there's
more of US than THEM out there (leastaways I hope so) and that WE have
terminals and modems to keep in touch with.
Michael C. Berch
mcb@lll-tis.ARPA
...ucbvax!lbl-csam!lll-tis!mcb
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Date: 15 Oct 84 11:02:00 PDT (Monday)
From: Wanless.PA@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Re: HUMAN-NETS Digest V7 #60
To: kew@DECWRL.ARPA
RE: "Many women's organizations have taken strong stands against
homework legislation. Their concern is that women will be exploited;
being forced to work in the home for low wages and no benefits. They
also are concerned about peripheral issues such as day-care and the
erosion of fragile child care programs already underfunded."
Why don't they just draft legislation that says that homeworkers are
covered by the same benefits as factory workers, and that their wages
must be the same as if they were working in the factory ? It seems
like this should be obvious, that workers for the same extablishment
should be treated the same, wherever they are working.
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End of HUMAN-NETS Digest
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