human-nets@ucbvax.ARPA (10/20/84)
From: Charles McGrew (The Moderator) <Human-Nets-Request@Rutgers>
HUMAN-NETS Digest Friday, 19 Oct 1984 Volume 7 : Issue 63
Today's Topics:
Response to Query - Biofeedback Instrument Link,
Computers and People - Electronic Democracy (2 msgs),
Computer Networks - SuperScout Gateway &
56KB Home Data Service & Home Banking &
To read or not to read (Email)
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Date: 19 October 1984 09:00-EDT
From: Devon S. McCullough <DEVON @ MIT-MC>
Subject: PC <--> Biofeedback Instrument Link (info wanted)
To: WBD.TYM @ OFFICE-1
Lee Bristol (Hmm, was that really his name?) who I believe majored in
Physics at MIT, and ran the original Apple dealership in the
Washington, DC area, was always talking about doing that but I don't
know what ever came of it. Last I heard he had moved up route 270 to
Gaithersburg, Maryland, but I've been out of touch for a long time.
If you like I can try to track him down. --Devon
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Date: Thu 18 Oct 84 03:03:07-EDT
From: Ralph W. Hyre Jr. <RALPHW@MIT-XX.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Electronic Democracy proposal (V7 #62)
I speak as a pseudo-libertarian, who believes that the only proper
function of government is to protect individual's rights. (Of course
I am free to define and interpret rights much more liberally than
others. For example, I can say that people have a right to equality
of opportunity.)
The proxy system bothers me, since it has the potential give less
service for more money. If proxies are paid according to how many
people they represent, people might become proxies just for the money.
They would be acting for their own best interest, not that of their
constituents. The proxy system also doesn't seem to be that great of
a change from our current system. Senators and Congressman are
nothing but proxies, in a sense.
I would rather see parts of your proposal implemented on a small
scale, and gradually expanded to include larger groups if people are
happy with the results. Maybe a three-house system (House of
Representatives, Senate and The People) would be a better alternative.
Trying to get 240 million people to discuss the issues presents
problems of scale that aren't present with 435 individuals.
What should change is that you should be able to write your
congressman for 'free'. After all, you're paying for them to be able
to write you for free. Maybe MCI Mail will try do this for the PR
value.
- Ralph Hyre (ralphw@mit-xx.arpa)
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Date: Thu 18 Oct 84 11:30:24-PDT
From: WYLAND@SRI-KL.ARPA
Subject: Electronic Democracy by Proxy
<From: David Booth <booth@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA> Subject: Electronic
<Democracy proposal
< Electronic Democracy: What Is It? What Could It Be?
< [................]
< A Proxy System
<Anyone could be a proxy. This would allow each one of us to
<select our representation just as descriminately as we want.
<And proxies could be paid based on how many people they actually
<represented on the votes. This would allow professional
<proxies, who could make it their sole job to be informed on the
<issues.
<Proxies would be prohibited from buying people's votes, of
<course. Since votes would have to be bought on the large scale
<to have any impact, forcing vote-buying underground would
<eliminate the problem.
David Booth's proposal for electronic democracy by proxy is
interesting. The point that information overload leads to some
form of representative system is important.
The proposed proxy system seems to me to be a minor variation on the
standard representative system. I think this is good: it is something
that is possible, a social change we could grow into rather than a
fundamental scrap-and-start-over revolution. It would also draw on
related concepts and methods we currently use to handle secondary
consequences to the representative form. For example: will we keep
the legislative, executive, judicial triad? If so, what are the
details of their interactions and what are their respective
limitations? Details are important: precedents become law.
The proxy system has another advantage: it has been tried and is in
successful use in corporations for representation of the shareholders.
This means that we are not starting, cold, with a new system which is
nice in theory but untried in practice. Few systems are both nice in
theory and useful in practice.
I think the new thing provided by the proxy system is the potential
for "loosening up" the system. Proxy representatives need not be
restricted to particular geographical districts (or states) as they
now are. (Note: here is a secondary problem, i.e. preventing the
"tyranny of the majority" from destroying a local environment
populated by a minority for a minor advantage to the majority.) Also,
if proxies can be cancelled and reassigned instantly, I think that
this will make the proxy person much more sensitive to voters, the
proxy givers.
There are still some problems, of course. The argument against "mob
rule" is valid: if the system is too quick to act, a popular emotional
surge could lead to bad results: a lynch mob can hang the wrong man.
The Greeks - to begin with - had some practical experience with this
problem.
A side note. Computer technology might become *really* important
socially by quickly projecting the results - in depth - of a proposed
action. This gives faster feedback, which control system theory says
should help stabilize the system (i.e., the governmental system).
A proxy system may even evolve. As the nets grow, someone is going to
get the idea of using them to organize funding groups for political
action, and some smart representative is going to see this as a new
political base.
Now for a *radical* proposal. How about giving our proxy the direct
power to vote our taxes? Specifically, how about assigning part or
all of our individual tax dollars directly to the proxy for assignment
by him to worthy projects? There are many secondary problems to
solve, such as long term dollar commitments and their approval by the
voter, but it could be really interesting. Money is political power.
Control of the money is control of the power. Wouldn't it be nice to
be able to choose - directly, by ourselves - what our tax money is
spent on?
Dave Wyland
------------------------------
Date: Thu 18 Oct 84 07:52:40-EDT
From: Wayne McGuire <MDC.WAYNE%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: SuperScout & SuperNet
Cc: zbbs%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA
Following is an excerpt from an article in a local newspaper
about a new service offered by Business Computer Network which
provides a single powerful gateway to all the leading commercial
online database services. The concept behind the service is brilliant,
and I, for one, hope it handsomely succeeds. (Let's hope that their
next move will be to attach a natural language front end to the
system.) Has anyone on Human-Nets any personal experiences to relate
about SuperScout or BCN?
[begin quote]
A two-year-old southern California company has torn a page from
the shaving industry's marketing book, giving away the razor to sell
more blades.
Business Computer Network, headquartered in Cardiff, near San
Diego, is giving away its SuperScout communications software disk,
which it values at $200 a copy, to anyone who calls its 24-hour
toll-free number (800 446-6255).
BCN hopes that once you have the disk you'll use it to gain
access to 14 major online database services, and Western Union's
EasyLink, which makes your microcomputer a sophisticated Telex machine
able to send electronic mail to any type of personal computer.
''We currently have 5,000 subscribers and are looking forward to
participating in [the] $4.1 billion online database services
marketplace,'' said Robert Smith, BCN's marketing vice president.
He said he expects small businesses and home users to boost
subscriptions to 150,000 within 18 months.
SuperScout subscribers pay $5 a month for access to BCN's system.
The software is free and the company even provides a modem.
For that $60 a year the subscriber gets access to all the member
databases, including CompuServe, Dialog, BRS, General Electric, Nexis
and others.
The subscriber communicates with BCN's mainframe in Wyoming, via
toll-free number. With the push of one button the mainframe does all
the work of connecting the user to the database.
The subscriber gets one monthly bill, for time on the system and
the $5 fee.
Smith said initiation fees and monthly charges alone for all the
services if purchased separately would cost $3,500 a year.
Users can also take advantage of promotional offers by the
different database services, often getting free time on line. BCN
sends subscribers a newsletter which lists the availability of free
time, rate changes and other database related news.
But who wants or needs access to 14 databases?
Smith answered that individuals in corporations and small
businesses will use SuperScout at home, discover its varied
applications and bring it into the workplace.
''Most all grass roots movements, like the microcomputer
movement, started with home users responding to the new technology.
We're looking forward to that same movement in telecommunications.
''There was a lot of resistance from small business.... The more
sophisticated home user is going to bring the new technology into the
marketplace. Within the next 24 months there will be a revolution in
business communications.
''We see that as being the wave of the future and we're making a
big bet on it,'' Smith said.
The size of that bet is between $2 million and $5 million, which
is what Smith said it is costing to set up the company.
[end quote]
------------------------------
Date: Thu 18 Oct 84 20:00:57-PDT
From: Mabry Tyson <Tyson@SRI-AI.ARPA>
Subject: Cost of 56KB home data service
Sometime back I talked to Pacific Bell about various options. At that
time, if my figures are right, 9600baud service (from home) costing
was $28/month and $.65/kilopacket (a packet is 212 characters). DO
NOT PUT MUCH FAITH IN THOSE FIGURES. I found my scribbles on some
literature I got from them but I am not sure that those are the right
price. Do consider that if you are using full duplex character i/o
from your terminal, then each character of input would probably be a
packet.
Some of the features of the LADT Dedicated Access are
1) No time element (Pay for data sent or received)
2) Up to 9600 baud
3) Uses existing phone line (but it has to be close enough to the
central office)
4) Not distance sensitive (I guess like a hardwired line?)
5) Simultaneous voice and data
6) Incoming and outgoing calls
7) No modem required
8) Bulk discounts
The 56Kbaud service that has been talked about here is their LADT high
speed access. I didn't get any prices on that because I don't think
it was available here when I was looking. It seems that it would be
pretty much the same as the LADT above. I believe the difference is
that the difference is that once your signal gets to the main office,
it is sent out over a high speed network (multiplexed with other
signals) and then eventually to your host.
I don't know much more about the details other than this. We were
actually looking at something else at the time (fiber-optic net at
very high bandwidth) so I didn't pay as much attention as I might
have.
The one thing I was interested in using the 56KB service for would be
for accessing office equipment (such as lisp machines) at a high
enough band width that downloading the megabit screens (or screen
differences) wouldn't take too long.
------------------------------
Date: 17 Oct 84 21:23:04 PDT (Wed)
Subject: Re: Worldnet today - home banking via computer-modems
From: Jerry Sweet <jsweet@uci-750a>
I tried BofA's home banking for a few weeks. My conclusion: nice try,
but no cigar. After making some suggestions (some of them, to my
shame, quite tactless), I was sufficiently disgruntled by the
responses to terminate the service.
Good things about BofA's home banking:
- They do respond to mail that you send them
in short order.
- The list of organizations to which you can
make payments is quite impressive.
- Vadic 1200 is supported, at least at the number
that I called in Southern California.
- The menu interface appears to be simple to use.
- The system appears to be reasonably secure,
if a bit cumbersome in some cases (paperwork
required).
The bad things about BofA's home banking:
- All technical decisions are apparently made
primarily by marketing people.
- Many terminals cannot be supported because
of the limited number of characteristics
assumed. If null padding is required for
certain operations, you're out of luck.
- The display is assumed to be about forty
characters wide. End of story.
- The "electronic mail" facility is so primitive
that most experienced users (read "spoiled")
will be frustrated terribly.
- The system interface is hardly more sophisticated
than an ATM. It is apparently some special subsystem
of Compuserve (?), and makes no provision for
local storage of configuration information,
notes, or copies of electronic messages sent.
- The service is expensive, especially when you
consider the fact that you are making it easier
on THEM--not the other way around. Guess they
decided that the service provides "status value",
and they could turn a buck by charging for it.
I don't care whether some of my technical complaints are unreasonable
to solve from their point of view. The fact remains that home banking
is digustingly primitive, lackluster, and only barely useful. I only
hope that other banks can compete effectively with nicer systems,
forcing BofA to do better.
-jns
------------------------------
Date: Thu 18 Oct 84 20:24:19-PDT
From: Mabry Tyson <Tyson@SRI-AI.ARPA>
Subject: Usage of mail or lack thereof
I imagine most of the readers of human-nets use electronic mail
regularly. To me it seems an efficient way to do business (except for
typing it in). However, I have recently found out that the person in
charge of the computer I am using has gotten out of the practice of
keeping up with his mail. He was almost bragging (well, bragging is
too strong a word; I believe he was trying to impress me with how much
work he had to do) when he showed me that he had more than 1000 unread
messages. Some of these were mine and were about the operations of
the facility he manages. Needless to say my opinion of his managerial
skills dropped. What a way to run a business!
However, he may not be alone in that. I know another director of
computing at another organization who likewise is averse to reading
his mail. In order to be sure he reads it, we have to send it to an
assistant who helps him. I was not pleased about that either.
I have been told there are a lot of people out there that habitually
avoid their mail because they get too much of it. These are people at
places that have programs to filter their mail (ie, reject messages
from xxx, show messages from yyy, etc.) so that isn't enough.
I guess some people need secretaries to read their mail as well as
answer their phones!
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End of HUMAN-NETS Digest
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