ARPAVAX:UNKNOWN:sf-lovers (09/12/82)
>From SFL@SRI-CSL Sun Sep 12 05:09:46 1982
SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 28 Aug 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 47
Today's Topics:
SF Books - Coils & Courtship Rite &
Stand on Zanzibar & Poul Anderson,
SF TV - Land of the Lost & Starlost,
Humor - Genderless Video Games
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 08/21/82 02:53:52
From: JEH@MIT-MC
Subject: Review: \Coils/ by Fred Saberhagen and Roger Zelazny
Micro-review: Worth reading once. Good writing, interesting ideas,
but not a particularly memorable story.
Zelazny really is over-using the rediscovery-of-forgotten-past
plotline. At least in \Nine Princes in Amber/ there was some excuse
for it: The reader NEEDED a slow, easy introduction to Corwin's home
environment. Here (as in many of Z's other books),
rediscovery-of-past is the whole story. The obstacles placed in the
hero's path are interesting, and his way of getting past them is
interesting and well-described -- he can psionically link to, get
information from, and control computers -- but the overall story isn't
that momentous. The writing is very good, and each chapter flow along
well enough, but at the end I realized I'd been cheated a bit -- as if
I'd eaten and paid for a dinner that tasted good, but which was
neither filling nor nourishing. In particular, the final battle
between Our Hero and his enemies wasn't particularly exciting, and not
at all climactic; it was just another of his troubles, and I had to
keep glancing at the page numbers to be sure that it WAS the final
battle (even though the authors kept reminding me that it was, about
once every three grafs, in so many words).
Worth reading, I suppose, but not worth buying unless you can get it
for under two bucks. Sorry about that, Fred and Roger -- I really
expected better.
----Jamie Hanrahan
------------------------------
Date: 15 August 1982 1708-EDT
From: Hank Walker at CMU-10A
Subject: Courtship Rite
This story was serialized in the Feb 1, Mar 1, Mar 29, and May issues
of ANALOG. As it so happens, I just finished reading it last night
(I'm behind on my reading). It deals with the bizarre culture created
on a planet by a starship apparently escaping a war. Much of the
story deals with the strange customs of the people, and their origins.
As one of the characters says in the story, you may not like the
rituals, but they were developed to solve a problem, and even though
we may have forgotten the problem, it is probably still there waiting
to come back if we throw out the ritual.
The story is at least as good as anything else I've read lately.
------------------------------
Date: 25-Aug-82 12:01AM-EDT (Wed)
From: Todd Allen <Allen at YALE>
Subject: Raiders OTLA - John Brunner - Poul Anderson
Just came back from seeing "Raiders of the Lost Ark" for the 4th or
5th time. (Yes, I know, not SF!) Was amazed at something -- that
movie runs less than two hours, yet it feals much longer. Not that
it's boring, but that there's so much packed into it. Some how you
feel that it could end when the board the freighter, yet it keeps on
going. AMAZING!!! Star Wars had the same quality. This may be a big
factor in their popularity.
Our arpa gateway was down for a while, so I'm about 1&1/2 weeks behind
in my reading. To respond to some things that have flown by ...
RE: From: "Ross Nelson" <N.NELSON at SU-LOTS>
John Brunner's "Stand on Zanzibar" ranks with "1984" and
"Brave New World" as anti-utopias.
No doubt about it, Zanzibar is one of the best SF novels ever written.
It is interesting and absorbing, not only for its plot and ideas, but
also for its style and manner of presentation. Perhaps the only TV
documentry that never made it to TV. However, why no mention of "The
Jagged Orbit", also by Brunner, written the year after Zanzibar. It
is every bit as powerful, well written, and relevant. Zanzibar and
Orbit may be the two best books Brunner has ever written. Certainly
Brunner's recent output has been a disappointment. (Most of his work
up to Zanzibar and Orbit realy turned me on -- the last 14 years have
been mostly down hill.)
Zanzibar and Orbit are two great books, neither one of which has
received its due. Zanzibar is well known, but never won any awards or
great acclaim. Orbit is virtually unknown, but definitely the equal of
Zanzibar. If you haven't read it do so. Read them both - together -
they are related, but not the same.
Can someone tell me ...
I once heard the Bunner did a sequel to Zanzibar (not Orbit). Is
this
true? Title please!
On to Poul Anderson ...
I think I have read more works by Anderson than by any one else
(except maybe Asimov, who is a daily occurrence and as inescapable as
the rising of the sun!). In recent editions of the digest and in
reviews I have seen many complaints about the generally poor use of
language and quality of writing. Nabokov was pointed out as one of
the few who used English well, and literately. To this I answer, READ
THE WORKS OF POUL ANDERSON - anything by him (even "The Avitar").
At his very worst, Anderson's work is merely well written and
enjoyable. At his best (or almost there), is prose is as beautiful
and subtle as any written in any language. Combine this with an
informed, intelligent, and compassionate understanding of the human
condition, and an immense knowledge of history, folk lore, mythology,
literature, and technology, and you have a giant of a writer.
Contrary to what some would have you believe, the writers of the
forties and fifties are distinguishable, their works have other than
historical significance, and they are enjoyable even if you weren't
under 20 when the stuff was first written (much of Anderson's best
work was written before I was 7). Hopefully, people that say
otherwise are saying it only for shock value. If they truly believe
what they say, then one must wonder just how perceptive they are as
readers and as people.
Back to Anderson... I don't mean to say that everything he has
written is of great significance, certainly not. He has written his
share of space operas. However, even his space operas are no more
"just space operas" that "High Noon" is just another western. Among
other things, his extreme care and craftsmanship in his use of the
language.
Anderson is so easy to read, it is often possible to miss the deeper
aspects of his books and read them just as escapist literature. It
took me years to realize how beautifully crafted ALL his writting is.
What made me go back and explore this was my first encounter with his
Hugo winning "Goat Song" (Orpheus retold, but with very different
impact and meaning). It was while I was rereading his works, enjoying
the writting, that I discovered that even when plots and characters
bore no relation, most of his books are tied together by a common
idea/motive (not profit!).
Consider, for example, the set of books "The Dancer From Atlantis" (a
marvel!), "The Corridors of Time" (recently downplayed in the digest),
"Three Hearts and Three Lions", "The Golden Slave", and his recent
historical trilogy biographing Harold Hardrede (the titles don't come
to mind at the moment. These books span a period of over thirty
years, yet, if you look very closely, there is a common thread running
through all of them. What is happening, is that he is looking very
closely at our history and folk lore, exploring the possibilities
being the myths and legends and exploring what makes us (our culture)
what we are. He seems to be exploring the the way events and people
shape a culture, with the aim of understanding our own culture better.
(Ultimately, he is hooked on his own viking heritage.) (PS: Even van
Rijn fits in with this.)
About "Brain Wave" (reviewed in a recent digest) -- that book was
written in the mid fifties. Given the political and social atmosphere
at the time, it is not surprising that Anderson felt the brain wave
necessary for liberalization of social, sexual, and dress codes. The
shocks that the USA went through in the early sixties, that resulted
in this liberalization, was probably almost as great as that resulting
from Anderson's brain wave.
------------------------------
Date: 24 Aug 82 0:53:02-EDT (Tue)
From: Speaker.umcp-cs at UDel-Relay
Subject: SF TV: Starlost and Space Ark (?) and...
Date: 12-Aug-82 11:10:24 PDT (Thursday)
From: Mackey at PARC-MAXC
Subject: SF TV: Starlost and Space Ark (?) and...
I think I remember that show. It was about a family (father,
son, and daughter) who are out camping and fall through a
time-warp onto a planet with futuristic technology, and
dinosaurs, but no civilization.
This show was called 'Land of the Lost', a Sid and Marty Kroft
production aired on Saturday mornings.
There were some neat ideas in the story, like the Pylons that
were communication/memory devices, and there were some
interesting story ideas.
One of those storys, called 'Tag Team', was written by Larry Niven
and, true to Niven's style, focused more on the interactions of people
than on his technology.
Does anyone remember Space Ark? I think that was the name of
it. It was about a large spaceship with millions of people
scattered through it like nations.
Close...this one was produced in Canada and was called 'Starlost'.
Three people are trying to find the control center onboard a gigantic
space ark. Apparently some catastrophe has made the earth
uninhabitable so various segments of the earth's population have been
uprooted and placed inside giant domes (called bio-spheres I think).
Kind of like the idea behind 'Silent Running' but on a much grander
scale.
They get hold of a pass key that allows them to move between domes.
While on the outside they discover that a plague of some sort has
killed the entire crew...except those sealed within the domes...
- Speaker
speaker.Umcp-Cs@UDel-Relay
------------------------------
Date: 18 August 1982 14:53 edt
From: Barry Margolin at MIT-MULTICS
Subject: Land of the Lost
The moderator correctly pointed out that the TV show about a family
that falls into this weird land was not called "Starlost". The name
of the show was "Land of the Lost". It was a Saturday morning TV show
about eight years ago. It actually was quite good, as I remember it.
There was a race of neanderthals, and they had a language of their
own. The makers of the show seemed to give that up in the second or
third season, and they excused it by having the little girl teach them
how to speak English. I even remember a TV Guide article about the
language.
barmar
------------------------------
Date: 18 Aug 82 17:13:56-EDT (Wed)
From: Charles Kennedy <kermit@BRL>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #41
The name of the Saturday morning show that Mackey mistakenly mentioned
as being "The Starlost" is really "The Land of the Lost". I too found
the Pylons very interesting since they seemed technically
sophisticated. I believe that in one of the episodes, one of the
Pylons that controlled the weather had gone beserk (or had been
sabotaged, I can't remember), but the father was able to get the Pylon
working again.
Chuck Kennedy
<kermit @ brl >
------------------------------
Date: 18 Aug 1982 15:26:24-EDT
From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX
Subject: The Starlost
The pilot episode for this deservedly short-lived TV series was
novelized by Edward Bryant under the title PHOENIX WITHOUT ASHES; I'd
call it pretty good 50's SF (which is further ahead than most TV was
at that time). The book also has "Somehow I don't think we're in
Kansas, Toto", which is both the correct quote and Ellison's essay on
what happened to the show. In it he specifically says that he demanded
at the outset that Bova be hired as science consultant; Ellison had
used Bova's technical knowledge before (notably in a short story about
cars dueling on the freeway) and knew he couldn't provide the needed
realism himself.
Bova actually bailed out in disgust fairly early---I think before
the first episode was aired. The one instance that he can point to of
his advice actually being taken is in the opening shot(?), in which
some jackass had wanted to show that the generation ship was drifting,
aimless and uncontrolled; the camera was supposed to pan around an
"Enterprise"---style control room and lock on a sailing ship's
steering wheel rocking back and forth in the middle of all this
high-tech clutter. Ben did persuade them that the wheel didn't belong.
------------------------------
Date: 20 Aug 1982 1236-PDT
From: CARROLL at USC-ISIF
Subject: Items
Regarding Kevin Mackey's message in V6#41, the Saturday morning
show was "Land of the Lost". Not the best stories, but some nice
animation and other effects. It made extensive use of a "magicam"
video system for placing live action within miniature sets.
I think "The Starlost" listed a Cordwainer Bird as the creator, and
that was Ellison's pseudonym.....not sure.
Has there ever been a discussion about "Robinson Crusoe on Mars"?
One of the best, a very good film, especially considering when it was
made ( 1964).
Here are the titles, who are the authors?
1. "Operation Springboard"- a crippled teenager becomes a member
of the crew of the first ship to Venus...
2. "Space Winners"- some young people take part in an inter-
planetary exchange program and get stranded on a planet
where the primary weapon is the quarterstaff...
Both of these are juvenile type stories.
Did ( or does) anyone out there read comics? I really liked the
Legion of Super-Heroes in the 60's. Does anyone remember Spyman,
featured in the short-lived Harvey comic of the same name? He was a
government agent who had lost his hand disarming a nuclear weapon w/o
any tools.....his hand was replaced by a robot one, with all sorts of
gadgets like detachable finger-grenades. Good stuff.
Steve ( carroll@isif)
------------------------------
Date: 19 August 1982 17:18-EDT
From: junkmail.umcp-cs@udel-relay
Subject: to the person who replied to my mail
Here's a TIP from me that you can use:
Whenever you are thinking of accusing someone of TACtlessness,
remember this TIP well, atTACh a rope around your neck, and
direct your atTACk to yourself. We'll all be happier.
------------------------------
End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************ARPAVAX:UNKNOWN:sf-lovers (09/12/82)
>From SFL@SRI-CSL Sun Sep 12 06:40:58 1982
SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 28 Aug 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 47
Today's Topics:
SF Books - Coils & Courtship Rite &
Stand on Zanzibar & Poul Anderson,
SF TV - Land of the Lost & Starlost,
Humor - Genderless Video Games
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 08/21/82 02:53:52
From: JEH@MIT-MC
Subject: Review: \Coils/ by Fred Saberhagen and Roger Zelazny
Micro-review: Worth reading once. Good writing, interesting ideas,
but not a particularly memorable story.
Zelazny really is over-using the rediscovery-of-forgotten-past
plotline. At least in \Nine Princes in Amber/ there was some excuse
for it: The reader NEEDED a slow, easy introduction to Corwin's home
environment. Here (as in many of Z's other books),
rediscovery-of-past is the whole story. The obstacles placed in the
hero's path are interesting, and his way of getting past them is
interesting and well-described -- he can psionically link to, get
information from, and control computers -- but the overall story isn't
that momentous. The writing is very good, and each chapter flow along
well enough, but at the end I realized I'd been cheated a bit -- as if
I'd eaten and paid for a dinner that tasted good, but which was
neither filling nor nourishing. In particular, the final battle
between Our Hero and his enemies wasn't particularly exciting, and not
at all climactic; it was just another of his troubles, and I had to
keep glancing at the page numbers to be sure that it WAS the final
battle (even though the authors kept reminding me that it was, about
once every three grafs, in so many words).
Worth reading, I suppose, but not worth buying unless you can get it
for under two bucks. Sorry about that, Fred and Roger -- I really
expected better.
----Jamie Hanrahan
------------------------------
Date: 15 August 1982 1708-EDT
From: Hank Walker at CMU-10A
Subject: Courtship Rite
This story was serialized in the Feb 1, Mar 1, Mar 29, and May issues
of ANALOG. As it so happens, I just finished reading it last night
(I'm behind on my reading). It deals with the bizarre culture created
on a planet by a starship apparently escaping a war. Much of the
story deals with the strange customs of the people, and their origins.
As one of the characters says in the story, you may not like the
rituals, but they were developed to solve a problem, and even though
we may have forgotten the problem, it is probably still there waiting
to come back if we throw out the ritual.
The story is at least as good as anything else I've read lately.
------------------------------
Date: 25-Aug-82 12:01AM-EDT (Wed)
From: Todd Allen <Allen at YALE>
Subject: Raiders OTLA - John Brunner - Poul Anderson
Just came back from seeing "Raiders of the Lost Ark" for the 4th or
5th time. (Yes, I know, not SF!) Was amazed at something -- that
movie runs less than two hours, yet it feals much longer. Not that
it's boring, but that there's so much packed into it. Some how you
feel that it could end when the board the freighter, yet it keeps on
going. AMAZING!!! Star Wars had the same quality. This may be a big
factor in their popularity.
Our arpa gateway was down for a while, so I'm about 1&1/2 weeks behind
in my reading. To respond to some things that have flown by ...
RE: From: "Ross Nelson" <N.NELSON at SU-LOTS>
John Brunner's "Stand on Zanzibar" ranks with "1984" and
"Brave New World" as anti-utopias.
No doubt about it, Zanzibar is one of the best SF novels ever written.
It is interesting and absorbing, not only for its plot and ideas, but
also for its style and manner of presentation. Perhaps the only TV
documentry that never made it to TV. However, why no mention of "The
Jagged Orbit", also by Brunner, written the year after Zanzibar. It
is every bit as powerful, well written, and relevant. Zanzibar and
Orbit may be the two best books Brunner has ever written. Certainly
Brunner's recent output has been a disappointment. (Most of his work
up to Zanzibar and Orbit realy turned me on -- the last 14 years have
been mostly down hill.)
Zanzibar and Orbit are two great books, neither one of which has
received its due. Zanzibar is well known, but never won any awards or
great acclaim. Orbit is virtually unknown, but definitely the equal of
Zanzibar. If you haven't read it do so. Read them both - together -
they are related, but not the same.
Can someone tell me ...
I once heard the Bunner did a sequel to Zanzibar (not Orbit). Is
this
true? Title please!
On to Poul Anderson ...
I think I have read more works by Anderson than by any one else
(except maybe Asimov, who is a daily occurrence and as inescapable as
the rising of the sun!). In recent editions of the digest and in
reviews I have seen many complaints about the generally poor use of
language and quality of writing. Nabokov was pointed out as one of
the few who used English well, and literately. To this I answer, READ
THE WORKS OF POUL ANDERSON - anything by him (even "The Avitar").
At his very worst, Anderson's work is merely well written and
enjoyable. At his best (or almost there), is prose is as beautiful
and subtle as any written in any language. Combine this with an
informed, intelligent, and compassionate understanding of the human
condition, and an immense knowledge of history, folk lore, mythology,
literature, and technology, and you have a giant of a writer.
Contrary to what some would have you believe, the writers of the
forties and fifties are distinguishable, their works have other than
historical significance, and they are enjoyable even if you weren't
under 20 when the stuff was first written (much of Anderson's best
work was written before I was 7). Hopefully, people that say
otherwise are saying it only for shock value. If they truly believe
what they say, then one must wonder just how perceptive they are as
readers and as people.
Back to Anderson... I don't mean to say that everything he has
written is of great significance, certainly not. He has written his
share of space operas. However, even his space operas are no more
"just space operas" that "High Noon" is just another western. Among
other things, his extreme care and craftsmanship in his use of the
language.
Anderson is so easy to read, it is often possible to miss the deeper
aspects of his books and read them just as escapist literature. It
took me years to realize how beautifully crafted ALL his writting is.
What made me go back and explore this was my first encounter with his
Hugo winning "Goat Song" (Orpheus retold, but with very different
impact and meaning). It was while I was rereading his works, enjoying
the writting, that I discovered that even when plots and characters
bore no relation, most of his books are tied together by a common
idea/motive (not profit!).
Consider, for example, the set of books "The Dancer From Atlantis" (a
marvel!), "The Corridors of Time" (recently downplayed in the digest),
"Three Hearts and Three Lions", "The Golden Slave", and his recent
historical trilogy biographing Harold Hardrede (the titles don't come
to mind at the moment. These books span a period of over thirty
years, yet, if you look very closely, there is a common thread running
through all of them. What is happening, is that he is looking very
closely at our history and folk lore, exploring the possibilities
being the myths and legends and exploring what makes us (our culture)
what we are. He seems to be exploring the the way events and people
shape a culture, with the aim of understanding our own culture better.
(Ultimately, he is hooked on his own viking heritage.) (PS: Even van
Rijn fits in with this.)
About "Brain Wave" (reviewed in a recent digest) -- that book was
written in the mid fifties. Given the political and social atmosphere
at the time, it is not surprising that Anderson felt the brain wave
necessary for liberalization of social, sexual, and dress codes. The
shocks that the USA went through in the early sixties, that resulted
in this liberalization, was probably almost as great as that resulting
from Anderson's brain wave.
------------------------------
Date: 24 Aug 82 0:53:02-EDT (Tue)
From: Speaker.umcp-cs at UDel-Relay
Subject: SF TV: Starlost and Space Ark (?) and...
Date: 12-Aug-82 11:10:24 PDT (Thursday)
From: Mackey at PARC-MAXC
Subject: SF TV: Starlost and Space Ark (?) and...
I think I remember that show. It was about a family (father,
son, and daughter) who are out camping and fall through a
time-warp onto a planet with futuristic technology, and
dinosaurs, but no civilization.
This show was called 'Land of the Lost', a Sid and Marty Kroft
production aired on Saturday mornings.
There were some neat ideas in the story, like the Pylons that
were communication/memory devices, and there were some
interesting story ideas.
One of those storys, called 'Tag Team', was written by Larry Niven
and, true to Niven's style, focused more on the interactions of people
than on his technology.
Does anyone remember Space Ark? I think that was the name of
it. It was about a large spaceship with millions of people
scattered through it like nations.
Close...this one was produced in Canada and was called 'Starlost'.
Three people are trying to find the control center onboard a gigantic
space ark. Apparently some catastrophe has made the earth
uninhabitable so various segments of the earth's population have been
uprooted and placed inside giant domes (called bio-spheres I think).
Kind of like the idea behind 'Silent Running' but on a much grander
scale.
They get hold of a pass key that allows them to move between domes.
While on the outside they discover that a plague of some sort has
killed the entire crew...except those sealed within the domes...
- Speaker
speaker.Umcp-Cs@UDel-Relay
------------------------------
Date: 18 August 1982 14:53 edt
From: Barry Margolin at MIT-MULTICS
Subject: Land of the Lost
The moderator correctly pointed out that the TV show about a family
that falls into this weird land was not called "Starlost". The name
of the show was "Land of the Lost". It was a Saturday morning TV show
about eight years ago. It actually was quite good, as I remember it.
There was a race of neanderthals, and they had a language of their
own. The makers of the show seemed to give that up in the second or
third season, and they excused it by having the little girl teach them
how to speak English. I even remember a TV Guide article about the
language.
barmar
------------------------------
Date: 18 Aug 82 17:13:56-EDT (Wed)
From: Charles Kennedy <kermit@BRL>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #41
The name of the Saturday morning show that Mackey mistakenly mentioned
as being "The Starlost" is really "The Land of the Lost". I too found
the Pylons very interesting since they seemed technically
sophisticated. I believe that in one of the episodes, one of the
Pylons that controlled the weather had gone beserk (or had been
sabotaged, I can't remember), but the father was able to get the Pylon
working again.
Chuck Kennedy
<kermit @ brl >
------------------------------
Date: 18 Aug 1982 15:26:24-EDT
From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX
Subject: The Starlost
The pilot episode for this deservedly short-lived TV series was
novelized by Edward Bryant under the title PHOENIX WITHOUT ASHES; I'd
call it pretty good 50's SF (which is further ahead than most TV was
at that time). The book also has "Somehow I don't think we're in
Kansas, Toto", which is both the correct quote and Ellison's essay on
what happened to the show. In it he specifically says that he demanded
at the outset that Bova be hired as science consultant; Ellison had
used Bova's technical knowledge before (notably in a short story about
cars dueling on the freeway) and knew he couldn't provide the needed
realism himself.
Bova actually bailed out in disgust fairly early---I think before
the first episode was aired. The one instance that he can point to of
his advice actually being taken is in the opening shot(?), in which
some jackass had wanted to show that the generation ship was drifting,
aimless and uncontrolled; the camera was supposed to pan around an
"Enterprise"---style control room and lock on a sailing ship's
steering wheel rocking back and forth in the middle of all this
high-tech clutter. Ben did persuade them that the wheel didn't belong.
------------------------------
Date: 20 Aug 1982 1236-PDT
From: CARROLL at USC-ISIF
Subject: Items
Regarding Kevin Mackey's message in V6#41, the Saturday morning
show was "Land of the Lost". Not the best stories, but some nice
animation and other effects. It made extensive use of a "magicam"
video system for placing live action within miniature sets.
I think "The Starlost" listed a Cordwainer Bird as the creator, and
that was Ellison's pseudonym.....not sure.
Has there ever been a discussion about "Robinson Crusoe on Mars"?
One of the best, a very good film, especially considering when it was
made ( 1964).
Here are the titles, who are the authors?
1. "Operation Springboard"- a crippled teenager becomes a member
of the crew of the first ship to Venus...
2. "Space Winners"- some young people take part in an inter-
planetary exchange program and get stranded on a planet
where the primary weapon is the quarterstaff...
Both of these are juvenile type stories.
Did ( or does) anyone out there read comics? I really liked the
Legion of Super-Heroes in the 60's. Does anyone remember Spyman,
featured in the short-lived Harvey comic of the same name? He was a
government agent who had lost his hand disarming a nuclear weapon w/o
any tools.....his hand was replaced by a robot one, with all sorts of
gadgets like detachable finger-grenades. Good stuff.
Steve ( carroll@isif)
------------------------------
Date: 19 August 1982 17:18-EDT
From: junkmail.umcp-cs@udel-relay
Subject: to the person who replied to my mail
Here's a TIP from me that you can use:
Whenever you are thinking of accusing someone of TACtlessness,
remember this TIP well, atTACh a rope around your neck, and
direct your atTACk to yourself. We'll all be happier.
------------------------------
End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************