kas@hp-pcd.UUCP (kas) (08/17/85)
As some of you "oldtimers" may recall, there used to be a guy named Dane Meyer who read and posted stuff on net.rec.skydiv until his mean ol' bossman pulled his plug. I have continued to correspond with him via direct mail, forwarding stuff from the net, etc. We had planned to meet and jump with each other at the USPA Nationals Boogie this year, but at the last minute he had to cancel his plans because his wife was experiencing severe "morning sickness" (she's expecting, obviously). When I returned from the Boogie, Dane asked me to tell him all the gory details of my trip, so of course I complied. It occured to me that I may as well not waste all that typing, so I'll start posting my tales, and his responses, over the next several days. Actually, I'll start with a letter from him that was waiting in my mail box when I returned... * / \ |---/---\---| Ken Scofield C-9355 | Gone | Hewlett-Packard PCD | Jumpin' | Corvallis, OR |-----------| {ucbvax!hplabs, harpo, ogcvax}!hp-pcd!kas P.S. Please excuse the "personal" nature of these letters and tales. I don't have time to retype them for a "generic" audience...
kas@hp-pcd.UUCP (kas) (08/17/85)
To: rice!hp-pcd!hpcvlo!kas Subject: Woe is Me Cc: Meyer Status: RO Howdy Ken! ... thought I'd put a little mail in your mail box for you to read now that you are back from the boogie. As you now know, I was not able to swing the trip, even for a couple of days, as Donna had her worst time ever on the 4th. She barfed 7 times in a 12 hour period -- came very close to having to head into the hospital. Although I am discouraged at not making the boogie, I was most certainly needed home on the ranch this time. She is doing a bit better now -- back to only throwing up once a day. Ok, lets have it. I want a blow by blow run-down on the highs and lows of your vacation to Oklahoma. I'll bet the worst of it was the long drive home. It looked like it was hot out there, but not as bad as it could have been. I thought I noticed a bit of stormy weather moving through there on the 4th. In any case, it looked like you probably got a ton of good jumping weather -- the question is, did you get a ton of jumps? Did you bump into the Texas cronies? (how could you miss them -- they dominate attendance). Did you get a chance to see some of the hot competitors? Did you have any problems getting out the DC-3 (like the 4-7 slot that I described as difficult for me)? Isn't Mr. Douglas a gas? Rock and roll all the way to altitude. Certainly there must have been some new films being shown at night. Did your jumpsuit (and fall rate) work out with the general crowd? Did you try out a couple of dives with the "load organizers" that USPA provides? Do your kids still love ya? So there -- see if you can handle answering all that. Again, many apologies for not being there. It just wasn't in the cards for me to go this time. Hopefully, we will get a chance to meet and jump in the future. I'm not sure when we will get a chance to get up that way, but I do have a couple of good friends that live in Seattle that I plan on visiting some time -- but probably a couple of years off, as our kids will need to grow up a bit. I was up there about 5 years ago and jumped at Issaquah -- a very pretty and talented DZ. Well, gotta go. Dane Meyer ********************************************************************* Hi y'all! (read that with a drawl...I picked that up in Oklahoma!) Ok, lets see... before I tell the detailed stories, I'll first answer your list of 20 (?) questions. > Ok, lets have it. I want a blow by blow run-down on the highs and lows >of your vacation to Oklahoma. I'll bet the worst of it was the long drive >home. It looked like it was hot out there, but not as bad as it could have >been. I thought I noticed a bit of stormy weather moving through there on >the 4th. In any case, it looked like you probably got a ton of good jumping >weather -- the question is, did you get a ton of jumps? Did you bump into >the Texas cronies? (how could you miss them -- they dominate attendance). >Did you get a chance to see some of the hot competitors? Did you have any >problems getting out the DC-3 (like the 4-7 slot that I described as difficult >for me)? Isn't Mr. Douglas a gas? Rock and roll all the way to altitude. >Certainly there must have been some new films being shown at night. Did your >jumpsuit (and fall rate) work out with the general crowd? Did you try out >a couple of dives with the "load organizers" that USPA provides? Do your >kids still love ya? The weather -- "Hot" is probably too mild a description, but it will do. The temp. was into the high 90's every day, and the humidity was probably 30%-50%. It could have been worse. I sweat (and thus drank) GALLONS of liquids while I was there. We had a humdinger of a thunderstorm the night of the 4th. The wind blew down a lot of tents, but my little dome tent survived intact. I was relieved to discover that my tent is also rain-tight! Tons of jumps -- I made 17 jumps between Wed. night and the following Mon. morning. I don't know -- is that tons of jumps? How many do you make when you go there? I COULD have made lots more, but frankly, the afternoons were so ungodly hot that I actually lost the desire to jump until evening and morning. Texas cronies -- Yes, I did find a couple of guys who knew you, but now I don't remember their names. I'm terrible at remembering names! And yes, the Texans dominated the attendance! I jumped with several, but most were not your "cronies". Hot competitors -- Yeah, I was on some loads with the Golden Knights, and others of their calibre. Some of the videos (they had air-to-air and ground- to-air video cameras) were impressive indeed! DC-3 exits -- No problem. I managed to fall out every time. Like a leaf in the wind. Actually, I can't say that there was any real difference, no matter what slot I was in. My "technique", if you could call it that, was to go out the door with my arms high, to try to catch the wind and keep me from going head-over-heels. After about a second or two, when I was out of the prop blast, I would slam my arms to my sides and assume the dive position. I was generally not very stable at this point, as I would teeter back and forth like a pendulum. After a few seconds, the motion would smooth out, and I would find myself in a nice fast dive. One exit that I found worked surprisingly well was to jump out facing FORWARD, not towards the tail. By presenting myself to the wind blast in the standard "hard-arch" position, I would be stable almost immediately, and could transition easily to a stable dive. The only problem is that it is nearly impossible to do this in a tight exit, when the folks behind you are pushing you out the door towards the tail. Try to get in the LAST slot sometime and try this, or do a no-show-no-contact exit and be the first out (or last). Mr. Douglas -- What a ride! Wow! Seats and everything! I only managed to get on Mr. Doug a couple of times though. There were four DC-3's, and I seemed to draw Sugar Alpha more than any of the others. Fall rate -- No sweat. I'm a flyin' fool now. I found that I could match fall rates with damn near anybody, no matter how fast or slow! It was just a matter of learning how to "fly" my jumpsuit, and compensate when needed. I am firmly convinced now that I do NOT like the new skin-suits the skygods are buying. They don't give enough speed control, so you are forced to jump with people that have the same fall rate. And if you get low, you'll NEVER get back up. I'll keep my Flitesuit, thank you. Load organizers -- I only utilized the service on Wed. evening when I made my first jump. After that, I would get back together with at least one person from a previous jump, and we would scour around for more bodies 'till we had a load. I could have (maybe should have) got on a few organized loads, because there were times when I sat around alot waiting for someone I "knew" to wander by. The kids -- Yes, I think they still love me. In fact, they had a good time visiting cousins and friends, etc., so I doubt they even missed me. My brother brought them out on the 4th, and they all enjoyed watching the mega- blob jumps on video, and stuff like that. At dark we went down the road to a park and shot off all our fireworks. Oklahoma allows some neat stuff! Here in Oregon, sparklers and smoke bombs are about all that is legal. (Ed. Note: I took my three kids with me, and drove to Oklahoma where I farmed out the kids to various friends and relatives while I "Boogied" for a few days. Dane was convinced my kids would disown me.) Well, I think I covered most of your questions, so I'll close this here. Don't worry, more stories and gory details will be forthcoming soon! Ken
kas@hp-pcd.UUCP (kas) (08/27/85)
Hello again, Before I tell the juicy jump stories, I'll bore you first with an overall description of the trip. Is the suspense killing you yet? Basically, the trip from Oregon to Oklahoma and back was a whirlwind tour of our National Parks system. If you make a cross-country trip in a couple of years, plan to take your time and see the sights. We spent the first day driving across Oregon, and spent the night in Boise, Idaho. From there, we went thru Craters Of The Moon, in Idaho, which is a huge lava flow area. Lots of interestion formations, lava caves, self-guided nature trails, and stuff like that. Allow about a half day, and hike several of the trails. Most are less than a half-mile long. From there we went to Yellowstone, and camped overnight in a KOA campground. Unfortunately, we didn't have the time to see even half of Yellowstone -- we just drove thru the following day and stopped to see what we could along the way. To see it all, allow a minimum of one full day -- two would be better. There are two "loop" roads in Yellowstone that form a figure "8". We drove only a portion of one of the loops, so we missed things like Yellowstone Falls, Mammoth Hot Springs, and things like that. We did, however, get to see Old Faithfull do her thing, and we hiked one or two short nature trails thru some hot springs, mud pots, and that sort of thing. Its' all interesting, and the country is gorgeous. From Yellowstone we drove thru the Grand Tetons (non-stop) and down to Dinosaur Nat. Monument in Colorado/Utah. Basically its' a bunch of bones stuck into a hillside, with a building built around them to keep the weather outside. Its' interesting, but small, so you need to allow only two hours for that stop. Then, onward to Rocky Mtn. Nat. Park, and the highest driveable pass in the USA -- something over 12,000 feet. We just drove thru, slowly, but there are trails to hike if you want to take the time. From there, we went on to Tulsa, where I farmed out the kids. I got to Muskogee Wed. mid-afternoon, and had two jumps under my belt by sunset! I made my 17th (and last) jump on Mon. morning, then returned to Tulsa to reclaim the kids. By the way, my body was covered with bruises after 5 days of jumping. You'ld have thought that I was engaged in combat RW or something! I don't even know where I got most of them. Anyway, from Tulsa we drove as far as Lubbock, where we spent the hottest, most miserable night in a tent that I can ever remember! We spent the rest of our nights in motels, except when we could stop at friends or relatives along the way. From Lubbock, we went to Carlsbad Caverns -- this is a MUST SEE! -- if you've never seen them. It cost only four bucks for the four of us to get in, and we hiked around the self-guided (!?) trails thru the caverns for 3 or 4 hours! They provide a walkie-talkie which receives recorded descriptions from an antenna buried in the trails, so you can stop and listen, or keep walking as you see fit. You don't have to wait for, or keep up with, a tour guide. From there, we went to Phoenix, AZ, and spent a couple of days visiting Donna's (my wife) parents, and some old friends. I got a chance to visit the guy that taught me how to jump, although he's no longer running a DZ. How times change. Next stop was LA, where we went to Knotts Berry Farm. The home leg was up thru California, where we passed thru Sequoia Nat. Park and Yosemite. Each of those can take anywhere from a half-day (drive-thru) to a whole day if you want to hike some trails, or whatever. Don't plan on spending the night at Yosemite, unless you've made reservations weeks in advance. It's a zoo. The last stop was in Klamath Falls, OR, to visit yet another brother and Crater Lake. Allow 3 or 4 hours to drive around the lake and stop at the visitors center for Ranger Talks, slide shows, and so forth. Whew! Home at last! It was a long trip, but worth it. The trick to keeping the kids happy during the long drives is to give them little games, toys, and stuff like that which can be played with in a car. They sleep alot too. We stopped every couple of hours at McDonalds, or whatever, to get drinks, stretch, water the mule, etc. If your kids and wife are subject to motion sickness, bring the Dromamine! I had two kids get sick on winding mountain roads, but they warned me in time to get the car stopped and them out! Well, this is enough for now. If you want more details about any of the Parks or whatever, let me know. We spent alot of nights in KOA campgrounds. Cheaper than motels if you don't mind setting up a tent. And they have showers and flush toilets, so you can feel half-way civilized. The cost varies, but most of them charge about $12 a night for a family of four, if you bring a tent. It's a couple bucks more if you have an RV and want water/electricity. More to come... Ken
kas@hp-pcd.UUCP (kas) (08/27/85)
No s___, there I was, skydiving real hard... Ok, here comes the first, and scariest, story. This incident is the only one in which I had the personal satisfaction of experiencing rectal pucker. I've got a couple of other stories to tell later that don't involve me. No s___, there I was, skydiving real hard with three other guys, doing some RW. At about 3500' we broke off and separated. I looked back over my shoulder and watched one of the other guys deploy his pilot chute. When I see someone else deploy, it is my custom to wait a second or two before dumping my own, to make sure we have vertical, as well as horizontal, separation. When I dumped, I got a very fast, hard opening. After making my usual canopy check, I looked straight in front of me, and to my horror, saw a canopy heading straight toward me! It seems that the other guy had a long, snivelly opening which, in conjunction with my fast opening, put us at the same altitude! Now, I ask you, what is the probability that two canopies will open at the same altitude? Given that, and given that each canopy will open in a random direction of the compass, what is the probability that each canopy will have a half-twist in the lines, such that they are facing each other? It has to be something like 3 billion-to-one. But it happened. So, there I was, staring straight into the center cell of another canopy approaching me with a closing speed of over 30 mph. By the time my brain registered the fact that I was in trouble, we were probably less than 100' apart, and closing fast. I made a grab for the control toggles, but before I could get my hands thru the loops we collided head-on! In retrospect, it may have been faster if I had grabbed the rear risers and tried a riser-turn. But riser turns are slow at best, and probably wouldn't have gotten me out of the way in time anyway. In the mean time, the other guy had managed to get his hands on his toggles, but we collided just about the time he released his brakes and tried to turn. At the moment of impact, our canopies were separated by about 6-8 feet in altitude, so our bodies did not contact (thank God!). I passed directly over his head and went completely thru his center-cell lines, and out the back side! Need- less to say, his canopy wrapped around my lines just above the risers, and collapsed into a ball of junk. His canopy then slid down over my head and shoulders and wrapped around me, so that I was hopelessly entangled in it. I couldn't see a thing, so I didn't even know what shape my canopy was in! One thing I did know, however, was that with the other guy still dangling below me, and his canopy wrapped around me, there was no way I could cut-away and dump my reserve! My first priority was to ascertain the condition of my own canopy, so I grabbed handfulls of his and managed to open a small window which allowed me to see only one or two cells on the right end. They looked OK, and I didn't sense any radical turns or descent rate in the seat of my pants, so I figured the rest of the canopy must be good. About this time, the other guy started yelling at me to try to untangle and drop him. I yelled back that there wasn't a chance and he'd better start thinking in terms of a cut-away. In the mean time, I was still scrabbling at his canopy, trying to clear it away from my risers enough to find the control toggles. It took an eternity, it seems, but I finally found the toggles and released the brakes. I could just barely see where I was going through all the junk, so I turned and found the airport. Checking my altimeter, I discovered that we were at 1500' and the other guy was still with me! I asked (yelled) if he intended to land with this mess, or do a cut-away. He kept asking if I could untangle, and when I finally convinced him I couldn't, he cut-away at about 1200'. Other than the fact I couldn't see much, the remainder of the canopy ride was uneventfull, although the landing was a bit hard, way out beyond the end of the runway. My greatest concern was that after he cut-away, his canopy would slither up my lines and foul my canopy. To prevent this, I hung onto whatever I could, using elbows, armpits, chin, knees, you name it! After landing, I untangled the mess and discovered that at least one of his lines had been completely torn off his canopy in the impact. I didn't look for more. He had landed safely under his reserve on the other side of the highway. Someone driving along in a van saw us land, and stopped to give us a lift back. It would have been a long walk otherwise! After that jump, and forevermore, I made it a point to break off the formation at 4000' minimum, and track like hell down to 2500' before dumping! I don't ever intend to let that happen again. I've never done CRW, but I've been interested in it. Now I'm not so sure. Maybe I'll stick to RW. My heart is pounding again, just thinking about that jump. I think I'll go have some lunch. Bye for now! Ken ***************************************************************************** To: rice!hp-pcd!hpcvlo!kas Subject: Re: Chapter Three Status: RO Ken, Sheeoooo. That was a beauty! I have never been in such a radical situation as this -- and I'm impressed with you and your fellow jumpers cool headedness while deciding what in the world to do. I will say, however, that if I had been the guy on the bottom, I would not have been asking questions all the way down to 1200'. My rule is 1800' if possible -- 1500' if it is not clear that I should cut away. Anything below that I consider emergency territory! Was this one of the earlier jumps that you made or did this happen towards the end of the trip? Congratulations on getting down safely on this one. I was going to say that I have done some CRW work -- have been in a 9-stack. But, I have since gotten out of it because I do not jump enough to stay current in all the CRW techniques and policies. I enterred 5th on that 9 stack (in Muskogee, 1983) and as it built to 9, I started asking myself questions about "what if this happens -- what is the correct reaction". I began dreaming up a million situations that I didn't know the answer. Luckily, our 9 stack was solid as a rock with no worrysome events. But I have not made a CRW jump since then. I was on one CRW jump where I was the pilot (me on top), a second jumper had docked on me and was planed all the way up. The third guy was making his approach -- and missed his shot. I looked down and saw his canopy directly below us about 5 feet. At that point, the guy put on brakes or something and his canopy floated straight up into us. It engulfed the below me and was threatening to engulf me. I began to reach out to push down his canopy -- when I accidently lost my foothold of my planed partner. He fell right through the 3rd jumpers lines and resulted in a very ugly, twisting mess. There I was, safe and sound, watching helplessly my two friends struggling with some real trouble, that I was at least partially responsible for. They also were very calm -- talked it out -- and both cut away safely. That jump really affected me, as I watched the whole thing from a 30 ft vantage point. CRW is fun if you are doing it with very experienced and safety minded folks. But you do have to face the fact that you will eventually get into a wrap -- and those are much harder to deal with than freefall emergencies (I think, anyway), especially if you have one of those spinning ones where the centrifical force of the spin prevents thinking straight, communication, vision, etc. I would consider it again if I jumped regularily. I do not think that I would ever compete in CRW as those guys are pushing the limits and are asking for wraps. I'm enjoying these notes! Keep them coming. I may be listening more than speaking. Dane
kas@hp-pcd.UUCP (kas) (08/29/85)
Dane, Just a quickie (?) response to your question. Stay tuned for more stories next week. >....................................................... I will say, however, >that if I had been the guy on the bottom, I would not have been asking >questions all the way down to 1200'. My rule is 1800' if possible -- >1500' if it is not clear that I should cut away. Anything below that >I consider emergency territory! Was this one of the earlier jumps that you >made or did this happen towards the end of the trip? Congratulations on >getting down safely on this one. I agree that 1200' is a little low for comfort, and I wondered at the time why he was taking so long. Even after talking to him later, I still don't know. I think he was hedging his bets that either I would get untangled, or the canopy would somehow work its way loose and slip off. I was fairly sure that neither of those events would happen, because I was pretty firmly trussed. Besides, I frankly made little effort to untangle myself, because I couldn't see WHAT was wrapped around WHERE, since my head was pretty much buried. He tried for a while to "talk" me out of the tangle -- as in, "move your left leg back and to the right..." -- but you can guess how effective that was. In a way, I'm kind of glad he didn't cut-away immediately anyway. If he had, I may not have had a grip on his canopy yet, and it could possibly have slipped up my lines to my canopy when his weight was suddenly released. As I said before, it took quite awhile for me to wriggle loose enough to find my toggles, and get his canopy into a position that I felt I could hang onto it. The collision occured at about 2500', but it wasn't until we were down to 1500' that I felt like I had the situation under control. It was at that point that I told him I felt I could land us both together if he wanted to, but if he wanted to cut- away, he'd better do it now. Apparently, he mulled over his options a few more times before deciding to split. I'm sure I could have landed both of us safely, if he had chosen to stay with me, but the landing would have been a bit rough. I think he chose (correctly) to split because of the slight possibility that his canopy might slip off of me 50' off the deck, and then not have time to reinflate. A nasty possibility. Anyway, this jump occured right in the middle of the Boogie, on Friday. I jumped again a couple of hours later. Sort of like falling off a horse -- get up and keep at it. Your CRW story sounds scary indeed. Sort of convinces me that maybe I should leave well enough alone and stick to RW. I assume that the two fellows involved in the wrap were not tangled in canopies or lines, thus allowing them both to cut-away safely. I agree with your comment that freefall problems are probably easier to deal with, with the possible exception of high-speed collisions. But it is my impression that canopy wraps happen all the time, whereas high-speed collisions are rare. I did make a couple of futile attempts at CRW while I was there, but my canopy "floats" alot because it has such a high glide ratio. Nobody could pin me. If I ever do try it, it will have to be with someone who has a similar canopy, so that we are reasonably matched. Well, 'nough for now. Ken
wmartin@brl-tgr.ARPA (Will Martin ) (09/04/85)
This posting has pushed me over the edge (how appropriate for skydive!) and inspired me to post the question that has been nagging at the back of my mind for all the time I have been reading this group. I have never jumped, so am looking in from the outside of this activity; it sounds like fun, but I doubt that I'll ever get involved in it. Anyway: When I think about the pleasures of skydiving, what comes to mind is that it must give one a sense of great freedom and independence, to be flying through the air (or falling, as you prefer), but, at least for those few minutes, completely free of gravity and the restraints of earthbound existence. It must provide a sense of exultation and joy. You can be totally isolated and independent, free of every other influence, a creature of the air, shedding all earthbound cares. Yet, most of these descriptions I have read, and this last tale of an accidental collision of two skydivers, emphasize GROUP activity. This seems to me to violate and destroy the main advantages and benefits of what you are doing. Once you leave that plane, and until you reach the ground, you can be totally alone, more alone than you can ever be in any other situation. So why spoil that wondrous isolation by diving in groups, where you contact other people, and interact with them, and have to pay attention to what they are doing and what you do in relation to them? Not only would you have the joy of total freedom, but you would be safer, too -- no mid-air collisions to spoil your flight. So why do this in groups, and try to make patterns of linked bodies, or whatever else is done in these group activities? It all seems inexplicable to me. Please post, not mail, responses. Thanks! Will
hwe@lanl.ARPA (09/11/85)
> When I think about the pleasures of skydiving, what comes to mind is > that it must give one a sense of great freedom and independence, ... TRUE!!! > Yet, most of these descriptions I have read, and this last tale of an > accidental collision of two skydivers, emphasize GROUP activity. > This seems to me to violate and destroy the main advantages and benefits > of what you are doing. Once you leave that plane, and until you reach > the ground, you can be totally alone, more alone than you can ever be in > any other situation. So why spoil that wondrous isolation by diving in > groups, where you contact other people, and interact with them, and have > to pay attention to what they are doing and what you do in relation to > them? Not only would you have the joy of total freedom, but you would be > safer, too -- no mid-air collisions to spoil your flight. > > So why do this in groups, and try to make patterns of linked bodies, or > whatever else is done in these group activities? It all seems > inexplicable to me. Your confusion comes from the idea that the ALONENESS is more important than the FLIGHT. The whole point of a SKYDIVE is to FLY with the aerodynamics of your body. A bird has better aerodynamics than a human. The bird is much better at flight than I. The bird can use the superior aerodynamics to slow and land at the end of the flight while I must use some extra drag-producing device. In spite of my poor aerodynamics, during a skydive I FLY to the best of my ability. I turn, move forward and backward and left and right, I slow my descent and speed my descent. This FLIGHT is the point of each skydive. Some folks can enjoy the FLIGHT of the body alone, just as some can hike alone, swim alone, etc. Many who FLY choose to do so in groups, building formations, and FLYING relative to each other (Hmmm maybe they should call it relative work). Just as I choose to hike with others, and swim(snorkel scuba) with others so as to share the fine experience, pursuit of a sport with others emphasizes the skills envolved and helps refine those skills. When I am FLYING alone, it takes a fairly well developed sense of the relative airflow to note that I am slipping to the right a little. When I slip the same amount during relative work, the effects are immediate. Don't miss the main point. FLIGHT. By The Way: Someday soon, Try It You'll Like It ! Skip Egdorf C-11444
kas@hp-pcd.UUCP (kas) (09/12/85)
As usual, I sent Dane Meyer the latest activity from the Net, and he sent back this reply to Will Martins' question about solo jumping. I was going to write a reply myself, but Danes' is so good I'll just say "I couldn't have said it better myself". By the way, since this posting is getting terribly long, I'll post some additional boogie tales under the title "Additional Boogie Tales". Ken Scofield ************************************************************************** You can post the following on the net if you'd like: As far as the guy on the net who thinks skydiving solo is where all the excitement is, I guess he'll just have to get involved himself to appreciate the joy of several folks in the air together attempting to execute a common plan (more commonly referred to as Relative Work or RW). I have to say that when I started jumping, I DID enjoy that feeling of being alone, in control (most of the time), and experiencing the "rush" and sensation of flying around. But, as you continue jumping, you will slowly run out of things to do -- you can fall stable, track, front loop, back loop, barrel roll, fall on your back, no lift dive, combine that to do a little style (2 repetitions of left-360, right-360, back loop), reverse arch to slow down, fly backwards, etc. Now once you have accomplished all those things, many of us began to get a bit bored because there isn't anything new to do. Although all skydives are very enjoyable and exciting, it may suprise you to know that a jumper with 40-50 jumps or more would find a solo jump, just falling stable, comparible to laying on the living room floor watching the Great Outdoors on television. Although there are additional risks involved with jumping with others, building formations, etc, there is just something special about being with your friends in this medium attempting to execute some planned (or unplanned) maneuvers. There are so many different formations and different slots on those formations, that every relative work (RW) dive is unique. And, since the sport has a social side to it, there is a great amount of enjoyment to discuss every detail of the dive with others on the load. The additional risks can be minimized -- and usually are. There are many rules of the road that ALL jumpers follow that I jump with, such as minimum speed docking, manditory wide horizontal separation at break away time, awareness of where the other folks are, hand waving before deploying your chute, hands on risers upon openning to be ready to avoid any unexpected collisions with other canopies, and many others. Most accidents involving multiple jumpers are due to obvious mistakes made by one of the jumpers. However, there are those very rare occations that you find yourself in a dangerous position, even after following all the rules (like in the collision story described on the net). So as long as you are jumping with safety minded people, the risks of RW are very small -- and the amount of fun doing all the formations (and failing to do them) can only be appreciated properly by experiencing it. On the other hand, I think it would be a great idea for those jumpers who have done bunches of consecutive RW jumps, to go out and make a solo jump just to remember and appreciate all the stuff you can do -- I can't remember the last time I did a barrel roll or a front/back loop. Dane