kechkayl@pur-ee.UUCP (David L Kechkaylo) (10/07/83)
About the article from ihuxe!rainbow, as a DM, I would never allow any of the
wishes he specified. For instance:
1) He awished that a magic item of his would not hacve to make saving throws
when it normally would have to (ie. After fumbles, and {I think} after
being fireballed, lightning bolted, disintegrated . . . etc.) Unfortunately,
if the DM allows this use of a wish he has to allow any reasonable
extrapolation of the wish, such as "I wish that my Vorpal Sword would
never break" or "I wish that my Horn of Blasting would never break". One
nice way a DM has of achieving a "turnover" of magic items is item saving
throws. A case where the wish is ok, but the precedent is not.
2) He wishes that two very nice magic rings (+3 protection and invisibility)
would merge into one functional ring. The 2 ring limit is there for a very
good reason. For instance, picture a high level mage wearing a double
ring of Wizardry that doubles (say) third and fourth level spell. An ugly
thought ?? It should be. Rings tend to be high magic, and two rings will
likely be all that you would want to see any player wearing anyway.
3) Finally, he wishes that his fighting ability would be as if he were one
level higher. I, personally, am against wishes permanently affecting
fighting ability. I agree that as specified (ie. a 16th level thief),
the wish doesn't have all that much effect (If the campaign is fast enough
so that 16th to 17th level thief doesn't take all that long). However, in
other worlds, this would be disastrous. Can you see all the 7th level
rangers trying to get a wish so they could get 3/2 earlier? I have such a
character in a world where magic tends to be medium rich, but experience
more scarce. I would love to get a wish and get 3/2 rather than almost
doubling my experience.
I think that in all these cases, my objections are all on a long term basis.
If you allow a specific type of wish, you are almost forced to allow reason-
able extrapolations from them. Therefore if you can forsee cases in the future
where you would not like another wish of this type to come along, you should
not allow the first wish.
A conservative at heart,
Tom Ruschakjj@rabbit.UUCP (10/07/83)
What I would do with the wishes described in the note with the same subject... (by.....) 1) I would teleport the short sword of cold into the elemental plane of cold, in the ruler's palace, encased inside an admantite block. That would ensure that the sword would never break, thus meeting the conditions of the wish. I do believe that wished can be used to meet the intent of wish 1, I just don't like the simple way it's worded... 2) Fine by me. 3) How would you phrase this wish in GAME TERMS? Your CHARACTER knows nothing of level, and has no way of knowing that the gods (DM) give him a better chance of hitting when his level rises. (Yes, the character might have a title, but that's NOT necessarily his/her level) Again, it could be done, but the wish would have to be phrased in game terms.
bb@lanl-a.UUCP (10/07/83)
ihuxe!rainbows wishes are very interesting. My reponse as a DM
would be quite a bit different than Tom's.
1. Wishing that a magic sword never break.
Tom's main objection to this wish is that is sets a precedent and
makes it harder for the DM to get rid of magic items. This wish
really isn't all that bad -- if I decided it would be good for the
game it is easy enough to get any item out of a character's hands
and rendered useless in any number of ways. For a cold sword I
suggest melting or heating it or hammering it into a lump. A wish
that an item become indestructible is more powerful and a bit more
risky. I don't really mess with fumble/critical hit stuff and
most of my character's items are lost through carelessness, theft,
or they run out of charges, or they fail saving throws for other
types of punishment like acid, etc. Nothing in that wish said
anything about H2SO4!
2. Wishing for two rings to become one.
I would not allow this wish to work by itself. Two rings in one
isn't so objectionable, but such a ring would have to be fashioned
separatly from the other two and I would require at least 3 wishes
and a permancency spell (or another wish) to create such a ring.
Given the super expensive/mithril/diamond ring, use 1 wish to
place the magic of each lesser ring in the main ring (2 wishes total)
1 wish to wish that each ring function acts independently of the
other (or else the +3 would only work when invisible), and a
permanency spell to make the whole thing stick together, though
a wish would be better, it's stronger magic. Of course, there would
still be a good chance of failure. The two rings used to create the
third would be irretrivably lost unless several more wishes were
expended. The above procedure can be attempted with any number of
rings/magic effects. This shows what level you have to be to create
a staff of the Arch-Magi, or to make a Ring of Elemental Control.
Each wish ages one 1 year or more, so it's not at all free, though
I allow characters to wish themselves to be younger with little
penalty (no one recognizes them).
3. Wishing for skill/level advancement
I would let a person wish to go up 1 level permenently once and
only once. A wish for a specific skill/ability not currently
available to a character because of level, not class, restrictions
I would also grant under most circumstances. Thus a wish for
a 1st level ranger to cast spells I would grant -- he would be
able to cast 1 1st level druid spell/day just as if he/she were
9th level. No more spell levels would be gained till 10th. Now,
finding a druid willing to instruct such a ranger, well, that's
another story. A fighter wishing to cast magic spells would be
turned into a spell caster permenently or just suffer damage from
making a wish to hard for the magic in the ring/spell to grant.
Thus a monk wishing for the Quivering Palm would get it, but there
are numerous ways to restrict the scope of such a wish.
Wishes are VERY powerful, and DM's must be confident and clever
when dealing with wishes. Advise them to seek sage advice about
what isn't and is possible with such a wish, or else be prepared
for some dire consequences. Your players must understand about
the balance of the campaign and if they are good, they will try
their best to get the most out of their wishes without causing
you any headaches. I like to have my players find rings and
such of wishes and not tell them what they've got until one of
them says "Boy, I wish I had some of that wine we drank last
week" or when hurting badly "OH, I wish I were dead." (Hasn't
happened yet, but the MU in my party has a wish ring he doesn't
know about -- only 1 wish on it.) I always like to encourage
my players to be clever so I often have to be cleverer then they
to continue to make the game exciting for them and me. Wishes
call for ultimate cleverness on the part of the DM.
b2 ...ucbvax!{lbl-csam, purdue, cmcl2}!lanl-a!bb
ps. About the wish of a dwarven FTR to be a unpinned HUM FTR. Well sure,
you're now a 110 year old human fighter standing next to the monster. Oh
my, you don't have any clothes on! Seriously, the best sort of wish
for combat situations is a teleport wish (either you or the monster) or
the old favorite (I wish that this monster drop dead -- most monsters
won't get much of a ST if any)bane@umcp-cs.UUCP (10/08/83)
Wishes should be run according to the principle of conservation of effort
expended to grant them. This of course assumes a lazy wish-granting entity.
For example, "I wish my sword of cold would never break" should be granted
by turning the sword into a very strong non-cold (hence non-brittle) sword.
Some GM's I know grant wishes for a magical item by teleporting the item away
from the nearest being who owns one. This gets interesting since the owners
are usually high-level NPC's or easily irritated PC's.
--
Arpa: bane.umcp-cs@udel-relay
Uucp:...{allegra,seismo}!umcp-cs!banetim@unc.UUCP (Tim Maroney) (10/10/83)
This was one of the more interesting topics to hit this group in a while. If I had been DMing, you would never have cast the second and third wishes as you stated -- after the first, you would have realized that wording of a wish is essential. I am quite picky about the wording of any wish except one for escape or resurrection. >>1) I wish this short sword of cold that I'm holding will never break. >>(purpose: to avoid rolling saving throws for the sword after every >>fumble) My approach here is basically the same as rabbit!jj's in terms of its effect to you, but different in its execution. "Never" is a very long time. How can the wish guarantee that the sword will never break? Even artifacts can be broken, after they are hit with a Rod of Cancellation enough times. The only possible way to guarantee your wish is to immediately turn the sword irrevocably into some unbreakable material, such as water or air. >>2) I wish that this ring of pro+3 that I'm holding and this ring of invis >>that I'm holding will now merge into one ring keeping all their magical >>properties intact.(purpose: to wear a third ring) Unfortunately, one of the magical properties of the two rings is that if they are both in effect on you, no other ring can be. You would get a single ring which would make it impossible to wear any other ring. This effect could be taken away using another Wish, or by carefully stating the requirement that another ring be wearable when you first make the Wish. (I assume that you "purpose" clauses weren't part of the Wish -- I require complete sentences.) >>3)I wish that my fighting ability with respect to hitting percentage was >>always one level higher than a person with my experience would normally >>be.(purpose: I was a L16 thief and greedily wanted to be fighting on the >>L17 table. This is a considerable jump but only at this particular level >>since when I do make L17 the wish will have no effect anymore. The >>motivating factor however was we were about to run the drow/Lolth series) Well, golly, gee, you just remember, it was once, and what's more, when it was, it was that way all the time! I think you meant to say "were", not the past tense. If the DM doesn't require literacy, the wish still doesn't work right. Instead of "person" you should have said "thief". You would get the hitting percentage of a magic-user with your experience. (A wish will always take the path of least resistance, and it is easier to hurt than help in AD&D magic.) Aside to rabbit!jj and others about experience levels: Like hell your character doesn't know about them! Are we playing the same game? What do you think those titles on the level tables are for? Why does the DMG say that you have to spend weeks in training and spent mucho bucks on getting a new experience level if you don't even know what one is? I suppose this urge just comes over you to go study with your mentor for a few weeks at great expense, and you don't notice any improvement when you're done. Right. Tim Maroney
kechkayl@pur-ee.UUCP (10/10/83)
#R:ihuxe:-36000:ecn-ee:14500002:000:1249 ecn-ee!kechkayl Oct 9 09:38:00 1983 One real gripe I have with the use of wishes is the almost obscene panting desires most DM's have to pervert them. A large proportion of the DM's I have played with love to do this. What I would like to know is this: What makes you think that a wish is intelligent????????? From reading the spell description, all I get is that it is a 9th level m-u spell that will do a wide variety of things. No matter how many times I read it, I never seem to see an intelligence rating for the spell. It's not as if each wish is a new AI program to try out. When I DM, I tend to run mechanical wishes. The player casts the spell and tells me what he wishes for and how he wishes it done. If it is within the scope and power of a 9th level spell, the wish will do it. If it isn't, the wish probably won't do anything. (Unless of course I know that the player is attempting to grossly pervetrt the rules) The wish spell has no mind, and it can't think of such things at teleporting a sword of cold to the palace of the ruler of the elemental plane of cold, just so it won't break. I tend to like to have the player give directions of how he wants the wish accomplished, and then if it is possible, fine. Oh, well, enough ranting. Thomas Ruschak
gs@mit-eddie.UUCP (Gordon Strong) (10/10/83)
Regarding the 3 differnt wishes and the ensuing arguments:
(1) I wouldn't teleport the sword to an elemental plane and
encase it simply because that would be more of a magical
expenditure of power than to simply bind the molecules of
the sword in a slightly different, more sturdy manner.
I like the conciseness of the wish. Creating (or acquiring)
an adamantite block, teleporting the sword across planes,
and imbedding the sword all sound like it is a DM's sour
grapes and not a well DM'ed wish. If a wish is relatively
simple, grant it. Unless you like to hose your players
unnecessarily, but that's a question of style...
(2) Merging the 2 rings seems like it may make an item of power
which was not intended. I would probably allow the merge and
then assign a percentage chance of a side-effect being created
and roll it. If passed, then fine, you have a powerful ring.
If not, then the ring permanetly acquires a random side-effect.
Use tables provided in the DMG or come up with your own. It's
your game.
(3) I agree that the character should not know anything about levels
and hitting tables and a wish worded in this manner would drain
away, with the wish unfulfilled. It would teach players not to
make stupid wishes...
--
Gordon Strong
genrad!mit-eddie!gs
GS%MIT-EECS@MIT-MCdavid14@garfield.UUCP (David Janes) (10/10/83)
Some GM's I know grant wishes for a magical item by teleporting the item away
from the nearest being who owns one. This gets interesting since the owners
are usually high-level NPC's or easily irritated PC's.
Why not teleport the wisher to the place where the magic item is? That makes
it slightly more interesting for all parties involved...
dave janes
{allegra, ihnp4, utcsrgv}!garfield!david14
ps: the perversity of the universe tends toward a maximum.asente@decwrl.UUCP (Paul Asente) (10/11/83)
I'm afraid that I must take exception to the theory that characters have no idea of level in AD&D. They most certainly do! Every character has to stop and study to gain a level. Therefore, you can ask a character "How many times have you studied?". For some specific classes, it's even more straightforward: For spell casters, you have spell slots changing. For monks, you have new special abilities at each level. I have decided in my campaign to just dodge the entire issue of how to make all this ridiculous arbitrary detail fit into my world. Characters can and do talk about being n-th level. I'd be interested in hearing about how other people have dealt with this problem. I play wishes in a slightly different way than most people here. For each wish, I roll a d6. On a 6, the wish works substantially better than wished for; on a 4 or 5 it works more or less as requested; on a 2 or 3 it gets mildly crocked; and on a 1 it gets severely crocked. Of course the real severity of the crock depends mainly on how much power was required to fulfill the wish. If a character wished for drinking water and the wish was severely crocked, the water would probably come up tasting a little bit off. This makes people very leary about wishing for super-powerful things, since the backlash can also be super-powerful! In general, anything that is within the ability of a 9th (or 7th) level spell can be gotten without a terrible crock (note that this includes various permanent effects) I've been running my campaign for about 4 years now on a more-or-less biweekly schedule, and in that time there have been about 8 wishes. One character wished for higher con (she had 5); one wished for a large & healthy family (he will get it. in fact, he will be impossible to kill permanently until it happens--this was a "6" wish. of course he doewn't know this). One character that happened to get a djinni from a wand of wonder, when told that some creature or other could go onto the astral plane, said absently, "I wish I could do that." Now she can. This was mildly crocked, so she can only do it once and can't come back by herself. I think you only need to crock wishes all to hell if you have somehow made them far too common in your campaign. If they are rare, characters will only wish for things that are important to them, and so I think they should get what they wish for. Wishing for a sword to be unbreakable is fine. Obviously this sword is important to the character or s/he wouldn't have wished it. -paul asente (decvax, ucbvax, allegra, ihnp4)!decwrl!asente
jj@rabbit.UUCP (10/11/83)
Hmmmm. Crocking wishes all to hell... Well, when I read the original article, I got the impression that the wishes in that universe were far too common, and being misused, therefore I decided that they should be crocked. Certainly if there are NOT a lot of wishes around (and there never could be, since each wish aged a high level MU) then crocking wishes isn't such a good idea, unless the wish is being used in a disreputable manner. <On the other hand, I would greatly hesititate to let anyone use all three wishes off a ring of wishes in three segments, or even TURNS, unless there were extremely mitigating circumstances. It's my opinion that a quickly dashed off wish means that the "mental image" of the wisher isn't complete, and solid, and thus the wish is really likely to crock. <Of course, a quick wish to be back on the prime material plane in one's own house, alone, when faced by Orcus DOES represent a clear mental image, so...> As ar as crocking the "ice sword" wish, I still think that the wish was ill-designed, since it really didn't go to the ROOT of why a sword breaks, and as had been pointed out, WISHES HAVE NO INTELLEGENCE, thus they can't do what you "meant", if you didn't say so. I would generally use what I got the impressions was the PC's idea of unbreakable in the case of that wish, usually in a way that was unexpected. I also usually roll percentiles when giving wishes, but first I add 15% for every level BELOW 9th of spell that would result in the same sort of effect, i.e. if a sixth level spell would work, I add 45%, roll percentiles, and take that sum to show me what percentage of the "correct"(as far as the spell caster intended) effect occurs. (The entire POWER of the wish will be used, in any case.) I also add 5% for every point of Int, if the effect is external, or for Wisdom, if the effect is internal. Like it or not, that's this DM's way. Since a wish represents 5 years or more of someone's life energies, I regard wishes as a sacred trust, to be used for significant reasons, and with care. (Weapons of most sorts aren't good enough, rings, maybe, people, yes.) OH YES.. As far as "Kill Orcus". I have a question: Why are all of you GOOD people trying to KILL? I like the idea of subverting Orcus. Given any sort of magic item in the DMG, you should be able to reverse his alignment, one might think. Of course, that's a bit chaotic, but ....... I regard KILLING as WRONG for good types, unless their immediate survival is at stake. Given the time to consider, killing Orcus, when you can get all that magic, is WRONG!