tim@unc.UUCP (Tim Maroney) (10/16/83)
Stanley Shebs has asked for a justification of my assertion that no one beats a well-played lich. His contention is that a lich is just another monster, which can be beaten by sufficiently powerful magic. Well, you may be right, but I'm not considering the case of a special-purpose inteligent sword coupled with a heavy-duty magic absorber like a Rod of Absorption. However, even in that case, the lich would stand a good chance. The reason is very simple. You don't mess around with 18th level spell casters, and most liches have trashed enough being to be at least 20th level. (Don't forget to give your monsters experience if they are human, by the way.) Why don't you mess with 18th level spell casters? The answer is simple: Mind Block (cast daily), Limited Wish, Power Word (stun or kill), Meteor Swarm, and a variety of illusion and recuperative spells that will keep you fighting shadows for quite a while. The lich has the added advantage of not aging. Therefore, casting a Limited Wish is just not a decision that takes much thought, since there is no side effect. Wishes are still incapacitating for a brief period, just like normal, but that wouldn't keep me from casting a few spiffy ones if I were a lich. The old two-Wish combination is a winner -- use one wish so that the other wish will trigger and resurrect you after the next time you die. Of course, it would have to be worded carefully, but for a lich this is not a problem. Another goodie is magic resistance. And did I mention that the treasure type for liches in the MM is ludicrous? A lich would have made himself some of the finest magic items, and would probably be quite wealthy besides. Another goodie is Clone, with a Wish that the clone be forever subservient to the lich. Who could be a better servant? In short, if the magic is used as effectively as something as smart as a lich would use it, there is no way you will send that sucker to the real death. On the other hand, if the lich is run as "just another monster", no doubt the PC party can triumph, but it is no victory to beat an ill-played foe. ___________ Tim Maroney duke!unc!tim (USENET), tim.unc@udel-relay (ARPA) The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
shebs@utah-cs.UUCP (Stanley Shebs) (10/23/83)
Tim, you seem to assume to assume that a lich would have *every* MU spell available, but I always thought that the lich would retain only those spells which he or she had in real life, so an 18th level lich would have only one 9th level spell available, etc. However, it's not clear whether a lich has to memorize spells and all that sort of thing... To beat a well-played lich one-on-one, you'd probably have to be an MU of comparable level, with some extra tricks, and a well-laid plan to surprise the lich and weaken it defenses. A group of high-level characters would still be sorely tested, but attacks from different directions could give the lich a lot of trouble - even 9th level spells have plenty of restrictions on their power... stan the l.h. utah-cs!shebs
laura@utcsstat.UUCP (Laura Creighton) (10/25/83)
How are you going to *surprise* a lich? I don't know about you, but if I were designing my resting, thinking, praying, and working place for the next few millenia I would want some place that is pretty much a fortress. Don't thinkt hat the lich is going to crawl out of his sarcophagus and say "Gee, 5 adventurers in my inner sanctum. I never thought that this would happen. Well, I cast 5 fireballs and die. Too bad, huh". Liches have lots of enemies. Also, who do you think will be associating with liches? maybe another living MU, for i suspect that a lich would make a wonderful teacher, but probably some devils or demons. After all, you want your company to be around for a long time. Ghosts also might be welcome company, as would various undead. Now if you run through all of the lich's undead companions, do you expect that he will not notice? I would expect liches to be involved heavily into spell research, so expect some spells that you have never seen before. They are also interested in aquiring magic lore and magic items. What about a lich with a few artifacts? Not impossible, and rather tough... laura creighton utcsstat!laura (and if you let player characters have lots of magic and artifects, you had better believe that the lich wil have a veritable arsenel..)
steven@qubix.UUCP (Steven Maurer) (10/28/83)
As far as I am concerned, creativity ceases when you "die".
Therefore, no lich would do anything "new" that he did not
do in life. (This means no spell research, no new defenses,
etc.). I figure that something has to be bad about being a
lich, or else they would have taken over the world by now.
Steven Maurerandree@uokvax.UUCP (10/28/83)
#R:unc:-601200:uokvax:2400004:000:525
uokvax!andree Oct 25 21:11:00 1983
I believe you Tim: nobody can beat a well-played lich. But then again,
nobody should beat a well-played 18th level mu. So, who wins when your
18th level mu runs into a lich?
Answer: He who draws first. This is the basic problem with frps that
include magic as it is usually represented in song and lore: It's
{\B *POWERFULL*.} I have never seen a game system where mus
can't get so powerful that hitting first wins. For this reason, I
wimp magic down as much as possible (fireball? What's that?) in my
game systems.
<mike