dalka@ihuxe.UUCP (11/21/83)
Question #1: How does a DM decide when an NPC should beleive/disbelive an Illusion? I suspect it should be based on intelligence, but how? The DMG gives no hint..... Question #2: Once you figure out #1, HOW do you factor in the differences between "spectral force" versus "pantasmal force"? Question #3: How do you regulate the player character as to what he can or cannot create? (For example: "I want to cast a spectral force of 1000 Umber hulks or how ever many can fit in the area of effect) Question #4: Can a player character be killed by an illusion? Ken Dalka ihuxe!dalka
dave@uwvax.ARPA (11/22/83)
#1: How does a DM decide when an NPC should beleive/disbelive an Illusion? I suspect it should be based on intelligence, but how? The DMG gives no hint..... I generally make a saving throw for the victim (we're talking about an NPC here, not a mere, stupid monster). If the victim make it, a flaw in the spell was noticed -- that person will be unharmed. I've never been a GM when an illusionist cast an illusion against a really stupid beast, but I think I would just roll a twenty-sided die and see if intelligence or less was rolled. I also take into account the caster -- how believable is the spell the person is casting (would *you* believe the appearance of a unicorn in a deep dungeon which you had to crawl to get into)? #2: Once you figure out #1, HOW do you factor in the differences between "spectral force" versus "phantasmal force"? I think this one is pretty well explained in the spell list. The higher level spell does more. If I remember correctly (I'm at work, not looking at my tome, mind you), phantasmal force is a 1st level spell and pretty wimpy. #3: How do you regulate the player character as to what he can or cannot create? (For example: "I want to cast a spectral force of 1000 Umber hulks or how ever many can fit in the area of effect) Look at the description of the spell -- take into account the area that can be affected, the spell's level and the level of the spell caster. A higher level spell caster should be able to create more intricate spectral forces than a lower level caster. Part of this higher ability is taken up by the fact that there are many *similar* illusionist spells, but the higher level spells can do more. #4: Can a player character be killed by an illusion? Definitely. How? I think it would be sort of like scaring them to death. For example, if you thought your heart was being ripped out, I think you could very well have a heart-attack and die. I apply this equally to monsters, NPC's and PC's. Dave Cohrs (aka M'Larek Arakellian, Illusionist) Univerity of Wisconsin Comp. Sci. Lab ...!seismo!uwvax!dave dave@wisc-rsch.ARPA
bstempleton@watmath.UUCP (Brad Templeton) (11/26/83)
I don't like the way most DM's do this. Like the one poster, many DMs just give NPCs an automatic saving throw. Yet PC's must actually state "I disbelieve" and take a round to do so. Then they get a save. I think this is no good. NPCs will notice flaws in player's illusions, and if there is something wrong with the illusion, exploit it, but otherwise they should have to follow the same disbelief rule. In particular, give extra points to a well designed illusion, or one that is incorperated with real things. If the illusion is of something that the victim fully expects to see, then chances are they will not get a save. If it is way out of the ordinary, then give them a good chance. Similarly, if you start throwing flaming oil at people (real) and then create an illusion of more oil coming and the flames getting higher, this is likely to get everybody. Phantasmal force can be best used augmenting a real effect. As for players, I allow any form of disbelief to give a save. For example: DM: You see a flock of Umber Hulks with wings coming at you. Player: Wings on an Umber Hulk? (At this point the player gets a save, and the DM either answers yes or no) Anything of the sort is good. "This doesn't sound right" "that's too dangerous" - any form of incredulity gets a save. -- Brad Templeton - Waterloo, Ont. (519) 886-7304
asente@decwrl.UUCP (Paul Asente) (11/27/83)
In response to the problem of just what an illusionist can make an illusion of, a friend (who runs and illusionist) and I came up with the following system, which I use in my A(mostly)D&D campaign. The idea is that different types of things cost different numbers of points and different illusionist spells can power illusions of different strengths. First I'll give the tables and some commentary, then some examples. COST OF ILLUSIONS Senses involved sound 3 sight 5 taste 5 smell 10 tactile 10 physical 20 mental 50 This is pretty straigtforward; you pay a cost for each sense you affect. The distinction between tactile and physical is one of degree; tactile gives something a feel and physical gives it mass. Very small objects need only tactile (e.g. an illusion of rain). Mental makes the illusion appear to have thoughts if ESPed or whatever. For each sense the illusion covers, you have to pay an additional cost on the next table to control it. Behaviour (for each sense) static 0 mechanical 5 creature 10 (locomotion, claw/claw/bite, etc.) skilled 20 (speech, swordplay, spellcasting, etc.) Static means it never changes; mechanical means it changes but in a very straightforward and predictable way. Illusions of a living being must typically have at least creature behaviour unless the thing is, for example, asleep. Environmental interaction none 0 Full cost for each different preprogrammed 5 entity; cost X (n+1)/2 for n reactive 10 similar entities. simple actions 10 complex tasks 20 intelligent plans 50 reaction to thoughts 50 This indicates how well the illusion reacts to things going on around it. None indicates the illusion will not do anything (it just sits). Preprogrammed can change but the illusionist has to decide just what it will do when the spell is cast. Reactive means the illusion will react itself to small changes in the environment without the illusionist having to control it and is often used in conjunction with the others. The next three indicate more or less the intelligence needed for the depicted creatures to do what they are doing. It is somewhat easier to control multiple instances of the same type of creature in an illusion, so the cost for each after the first is only half. Thus 5 orcs cost 3x what one orc costs, but an orc, a goblin, a kobold, an ogre, and a hill giant cost 5x what one orc costs. Reaction to thoughts can be added in with the others which makes the illusion able to react to a specific individual's thoughts in a way predetermined by the illusionist. The illusionist could make an illusion of a person that appeared to be someone else's long-dead mother, for example, even though the illusionist had never seen the mother. Alternatively, an illusionist could create an illusion of a servant that would anticipate someone's every need. Note that this table is orthogonal to the behaviour table, in that the behaviour requires expenditure for each sense and environmental interaction requires it for each creature. There is correlation, however, since the more complicated types of interaction require more advanced behaviour. Duration total concentration 0 partial concentration 10 (No spellcasting; movement & dodging OK) minimal concentration 70 (Spellcasting of non-concentration spells) no concentration 10/round (1/segment) permanent 100 repetitions 10/repetition triggering 40 (as magic mouth) This is pretty straightforward. I only allow no concentration if either minimal concentration or triggering is also used, or the behaviour has been well established through total or partial concentration already. Repetitions are exact repetitions, NO variation at all. If you created illusionary flaming oil dropping on people and followed that with a repetion, the illusion would most likely be seen through since the victims would probably have moved between repetitions, and the repetition would be inappropriate. Damage (all as per effect being depicted) none 0 illusionary 5 slight & illusionary 20 (1 per die) real if believed 70 real 150 Illusionary damage will be seen as such during the next quiet period for the victim. Slight & illusionary does a little bit of real damage unless the victim disbelieves before the damage occurs. Real if believed does damage unless the victim successfully disbelieves either before or afterwards, otherwise the damage is illusionary. Illusionary damage cannot kill a creature but rather makes it become unconcious for a number of rounds equal to the number of points below zero he is, plus 1-4 additional rounds. Illusions such as a bridge will support actual weight if given the real if believed or real damage categories and have a physical component. However, if the illusion is merely real if believed and the person crossing starts to waver in belief and makes (!) his saving throw, down he goes! Area of effect area 2/sq " mobile 30 replications 1/sqrt(# of replicas) restriction 10/individual included or excluded These are all orthoganal. Area covers the size of the illusion; mobile indicates this area can move around. Replications are exact duplicates of parts of the illusion but must all fit within the area of effect. If, for example, a marching skeleton costs N points and takes a 2x2 foot area, 100 marching skeletons cost 10 x N points for replications and 8 points for the area. (You can get 25 skeletons per square inch). Restriction applies to victims, so you can create illusions which only some people can see or which everyone but specified people can see. Ease of dispelling dispelled by disbelief 0 dispelled by touch 3 dispelled by touch in disbelief 10 not dispelled by touch in disbelief 50 Self-explanatory, I think. If it's dispelled by disbelief, the illusion goes away as soon as anyone disbelieves it. Spells Phantasmal Force (Illusionist) 50 Improved Phantasmal Force 75 Spectral Force 100 Shadow Force 150 (new 4th level spell) Illusionary Force 200 (new 5th level spell) Veil 300 Illusion unlimited (new 7th level spell) Phantasmal Force (Magic User) 25 + 5/level of MU This indicates how expensive an illusion a particular spell can cover. Here are some examples: An army of 100 skeletons: We'll make 4 different skeletons and make 25 replications of each one. sound: mechanical 3+5 8 sight: creature 5+10 15 simple actions 10 x (5/2) 25 (the 5/2 is for 4 skeletons) total concentration 0 0 no damage 0 0 area 4 sq " 2 x 4 8 mobile area 30 30 replications sqrt(25) 5 dispelled by t.i.d. 10 10 TOTAL 101 To make this work in a Spectral force, we could get rid of a few skeletons, or perhaps make it dispelled by touch. An illusionary flash of light if anyone touches your backpack but you: sight: static 5 + 0 5 no interaction 0 0 duration 1 segment 1 1 triggering 40 40 no damage 0 0 area of effect (1 sq ") 2 2 dispelled by disbelief 0 0 TOTAL 48 A phantasmal force can do this; if you used improved p.f. you could add some slight & illusionary damage to it (i.e. blinded for a few rounds) Everyone's favorite: an illusionary fireball! sight: mechanical 5 + 5 10 tactile: static 10 + 0 10 (heat) no interaction 0 0 total concentration 0 0 area (~12 sq ") 2 * 12 24 dispelled by t.i.d. 10 10 TOTAL (less damage) 54 With a first level spell you could do illusionary damage if you were willing to allow it to be dispelled by disbelief. An i.p.f. could do slight and illusionary damage. Real if believed damage requires a Shadow Force spell (4th) and real damage a Veil (6th), although an Illusionary Force spell (5th) will do it if you make it a little smaller. Illusionary bridge over a chasm: sight: static 5 + 0 5 physical: static 20 + 0 20 no interaction 0 0 partial concentration 10 10 (so you can cross!) real if believed damage 70 70 (to support weight) area (5 sq ") 5 x 2 10 dispelled by t.i.d. 10 10 TOTAL 125 This one will come crashing down if a crossed disbelieves it; to make one that's a bit more robust requires not dispelled by touch in disbelief, for an additional 40 points (and an additional spell level) Someone's long-dead mother appearing and giving advice (just to him) sound: skilled 3 + 20 23 sight: creature 5 + 10 15 simple actions 10 10 reaction to thoughts 50 50 total concentration 0 0 no damage 0 0 area <= 1 sq " 2 2 restriction to 1 person 10 10 dispelled by t.i.d. 10 10 TOTAL 120 (4th level spell) This one could be very effective. Finally, an illusion of someone's heart's desire in a lover: sound: skilled 3 + 20 23 sight: skilled 5 + 20 25 taste (!) mechanical 5 + 10 15 smell : mechanical 10 + 10 20 tactile : creature 10 + 10 20 physical : creature 20 + 10 30 reactive 10 10 intelligent plans 50 50 reation to thoughts 50 50 permanent 100 100 real damage 150 150 area <= 1 sq " 2 2 mobile area 30 30 not dispelled by t.i.d. 50 50 TOTAL 575 (7th level spell) This is a pretty formidable illusion! Since it requires a 7th level spell to do this, you might as well add illusionary thoughts. Hope this helps. -paul asente (decwrl!asente)
ekblaw@uiucdcs.UUCP (ekblaw ) (12/18/83)
#R:ihuxe:-42100:uiucdcs:9300015:000:501
uiucdcs!ekblaw Dec 17 21:47:00 1983
Answer #1: Disbelief is based on WISDOM. However, the first driving force,
as in so many other cases, is magic resistance.
Answer #2: Spectral forces are based on spirits, while phantasmal forces
are distortions or different views of existing objects.
Answer #3: Many spells will have limitations. Also remember that the illusion
must be constantly regulated and controlled by the spell-caster.
ust be constantly regulated and controlled by the speeekblaw@uiucdcs.UUCP (ekblaw ) (12/18/83)
#R:ihuxe:-42100:uiucdcs:9300016:000:163
uiucdcs!ekblaw Dec 17 21:50:00 1983
(Sorry about that--little brother playing around)
cont. answer 3:Thus, anything not able to be maintained by the caster's
thought will disappear.robison@eosp1.UUCP (Tobias D. Robison) (12/22/83)
Disbelief should not simply be based upon WISDOM. Relevant knowledge should be a big factor. For example, you turn a corner and face to face with an illusion of a sleeping Minotaur. If you have never seen a minotaur but the illusionist is familiar with them, you are more likely to be fooled than if you know Minotaurs and the Illusionst doesn't. Both intelligence and wisdom (if the character seems to be using them) should affect the effectiveness of the illusion. - Keremath, care of: Robison decvax!ittvax!eosp1 or: allegra!eosp1