burton@inuxg.UUCP (Thomas Burton) (01/10/84)
[bug squasher]
Steven Maurer writes:
My "favorite" spell is "feather fall". This allows you
to reduce the weight of an opponent to almost nothing, and
"push" him whereever you want to. A third level MU once got
rid of a Xorn, by floating him up 1/2 a mile.....
This is ridiculous. The spell says the recipient's weight is reduced
to that of a feather, allowing him to float downward at the rate of
(x=very small number) inches per round, or some such. Gravity still
acts on a feather, and air resistance will make it very difficult
to push a body up before it slows down and starts to fall again. Unless
the 3rd level MU used some other spell to help, or else pushed the Xorn
off of a 1/2 mile high cliff, the above-mentioned feat is impossible (in
my opinion).
"Invisibility" lasts "until the person attacks". This
allows an entire party to start off invisible, and continue
until there is some creature that can see through the spell.
-- it's also great for familiars.
True, Steve, but Invisibility does NOT include Inaudibility. Any D.M.
that would allow an entire party (which would in all probability include
Fighters wearing clanking armor) to sneak through a dungeon without
being detected is guilty of flagrant misunderstanding (and abuse) of
the rules.
"Tensor's Floating Disk" is a cheap form of levitation.
There is nothing in the discription that implies that the MU
cannot float himself.
Wrong. It says that the Disk will follow the magic-user at a certain
distance, or will go where he tells it to go within a certain range.
I also believe (I don't have the book with me) that it states it will
not come any closer than some minimum distance. However,
even if the rules allow the disk to get close enough for the MU to
hop on, rulings by both Gygax and the writer of "Sage Advice" in
the Dragon have precluded this use of the spell.
One interesting use I did see written up for this spell: A 5th level
MU and his 1st level apprentices needed to cross a river. The MU had each
apprentice cast a Tenser's floating disk. Then he cast both a fly spell
and a Tenser's Floating Disk. Then the first apprentice sat on the MU's
disk, the second apprentice sat on the first apprentice's disk, etc,
until all apprentices were seated on another apprentice's disk. Then
the MU simply flew across the river with the apprentices in tow. This
sort of use IS allowed (because I saw it as the solution to the AD&D quiz
in the Dragon, which was written by Gygax).
"Charm Person" can be used to grab whole hoards of Orcs,
Hobgoblins, and the like (after you have Slept them, of course).
You can create an entire army of "friends", that will act as
good cannon-fodder for your characters.
Great idea, Steve. What about the part of the spell that says the charmed
being cannot be forced to do something that is against its nature. Also,
the charm only makes the creature friendly toward the one casting the charm
spell; the charmed creature will still be hostile toward the caster's
friends UNTIL told to do otherwise, and it will still treat them with
a degree of mistrust. Also, the creature gets another saving throw every
time it is asked to do something "unnatural". I would love to see a
whole hoard of orcs suddenly turn on the group and attack because they
all made their saving throws...
-- Of course, the grosset, and most stupid, things has nothing
to do with D&D spells at all. Just capture a few of the nuke-em
monsters, and use their abilities to blow dungeons away....
Box a Basilisk. Hoards of fun. Watch characters five times
your level scream in horror.
How high level is your group? What do you mean by "Box a Basilisk"?
Carve out a Medusa's head. Somewhat gross, but always good fun.
Do you mean to hollow out a Medusa's head and wear her snakes to make
it look like YOU are a Medusa? Not a bad idea, really, but again, how
high level is your group, to allow you to wantonly slaughter Medusas
and use them this way?
Rub various creatures' poisons on your weapons. Cockatrice
poison is especially fun.
Handling of any such poison requires great care; even Assassins must
make saving throws against accidental poisoning when trying to handle
poisons and poisoned weapons. I would probably allow the players to
try to extract poison from a dead creature, but there would be lots
of saving throws required, and the poison would have to be treated
by an Alchemist to put it in a suitable form for use on weapons (as
well as make it stable enough to keep without losing potency).
Don't kill a dragon, subdue it. The rules actually make it
easier to subdue, than kill -- because every time the dragon
takes subdual points of damage, you must roll again to see if
if it gives up....
True, but intelligent evil dragons will always be on the look-out for
opportunities to turn on their masters. Dragons, like wizards, are subtle
and quick to anger. A dragon might very well fake being subdued by a
powerful party, in order to gain time and advantage over the group.
Doug Burton
inuxg!burton
ATT-Consumer Products Laboratories
a division of ATT-Technologiessteven@qubix.UUCP (Steven Maurer) (01/11/84)
>> This is ridiculous. The spell says the recipient's weight is reduced >> to that of a feather, allowing him to float downward at the rate of >> (x=very small number) inches per round, or some such. Gravity still >> acts on a feather, and air resistance will make it very difficult >> to push a body up before it slows down and starts to fall again. Unless >> the 3rd level MU used some other spell to help, or else pushed the Xorn >> off of a 1/2 mile high cliff, the above-mentioned feat is impossible (in >> my opinion). The said 3 level MU, had a Screech Owl as a familiar. The familiar was sent aloft, invisible (of course) with a 15 foot piece of string, with a loop at the bottom. Hooking the Xorn with the string, it flew upwards. The Xorn, cut the string a number of times, but there was always more string..... >> True, Steve, but Invisibility does NOT include Inaudibility. Any D.M. >> that would allow an entire party (which would in all probability include >> Fighters wearing clanking armor) to sneak through a dungeon without >> being detected is guilty of flagrant misunderstanding (and abuse) of >> the rules. Even if the party is not inaudible, pray tell me, how are the monsters supposed to attack invisible characters? They literally can run through the "Dungeon", dodging the swings of clumsy monsters, and get them to fight one another. >> Wrong. It says that the Disk will follow the magic-user at a certain >> distance, or will go where he tells it to go within a certain range. >> I also believe (I don't have the book with me) that it states it will >> not come any closer than some minimum distance. However, >> even if the rules allow the disk to get close enough for the MU to >> hop on, rulings by both Gygax and the writer of "Sage Advice" in >> the Dragon have precluded this use of the spell. >> One interesting use I did see written up for this spell: A 5th level >> MU and his 1st level apprentices needed to cross a river. The MU had each >> apprentice cast a Tenser's floating disk. Then he cast both a fly spell >> and a Tenser's Floating Disk. Then the first apprentice sat on the MU's >> disk, the second apprentice sat on the first apprentice's disk, etc, >> until all apprentices were seated on another apprentice's disk. Then >> the MU simply flew across the river with the apprentices in tow. This >> sort of use IS allowed (because I saw it as the solution to the AD&D quiz >> in the Dragon, which was written by Gygax). In typical Gygax fashon, TSR requires that you buy their magazine to get the official patches to their buggy rules system. There is still nothing that says that one apprentice could not Tensor's Disk another, and vice versa. (Pulling each other up by their proverbial britches). >> Great idea, Steve. What about the part of the spell that says the charmed >> being cannot be forced to do something that is against its nature. Also, >> the charm only makes the creature friendly toward the one casting the charm >> spell; the charmed creature will still be hostile toward the caster's >> friends UNTIL told to do otherwise, and it will still treat them with >> a degree of mistrust. Also, the creature gets another saving throw every >> time it is asked to do something "unnatural". I would love to see a >> whole hoard of orcs suddenly turn on the group and attack because they >> all made their saving throws... Tell me, why is the statement "Why don't we all go out and kill things to get rich" against a hobgoblins nature? I might be able to believe that a Chaotic Evil creature would get a saving throw if it was asked to show mercy, but not just to go out and slay. >> Box a Basilisk. Hoards of fun. Watch characters five times >> your level scream in horror. >> >> How high level is your group? What do you mean by "Box a Basilisk"? Procedure for capturing a basilisk (1st - 3rd level party) 1] Meet Basilisk 2] Don't Panic 3] Quickly throw your web spell (hopefully the basilisk was surprised, so someone isn't dead yet). 4] Get your strongest fighter to put his helmet on backwards, and have someone guide his way through the web to the trapped basilisk. 5] Throttle the creature till it faints. 6] Put it in a box with a hole out one side. Point box in one direction, and watch Umber Hulks die...... >> Do you mean to hollow out a Medusa's head and wear her snakes to make >> it look like YOU are a Medusa? Not a bad idea, really, but again, how >> high level is your group, to allow you to wantonly slaughter Medusas >> and use them this way? No. The Medusa is already dead from looking at the basilik, (or in some equally rules-buggy manner). Now, cut off the Medusa's head, and put it on a Tensor's floating Disk. Float the head out in front of the party. Watch dragons turn to stone. >> Handling of any such poison requires great care; even Assassins must >> make saving throws against accidental poisoning when trying to handle >> poisons and poisoned weapons. I would probably allow the players to >> try to extract poison from a dead creature, but there would be lots >> of saving throws required, and the poison would have to be treated >> by an Alchemist to put it in a suitable form for use on weapons (as >> well as make it stable enough to keep without losing potency). A good kludge. Isn't it a shame, that AD&D did not include such a system in the basic rules? Even in the advanced rules?? >> True, but intelligent evil dragons will always be on the look-out for >> opportunities to turn on their masters. Dragons, like wizards, are subtle >> and quick to anger. A dragon might very well fake being subdued by a >> powerful party, in order to gain time and advantage over the group. Then there was the time a 1st level hobbit thief, trying to steal a magic sword from a Black Dragon's pile of gold, accedentally woke up the dragon. Even though he was invisible (of course), he realized that this was one creature that would not be bothered about the nicities of getting a direct hit in. So he attacked to Subdue!! One sucessful 3 point shot, and a 04% roll later, the 1st level hobbit rode out atop his new dragon...... suuuuurrrreeeee.... (but the rules make it very easy to do). How about Psionics?? I saw a first level thief go from 1st to 6th level, in as many advantures, by simply going out to the local swamp and Psionicly blowing away all the brauntasaurouses (sp?). Of course this was not as bad as the 1st level fighter, who accedentally said "Demogorgon", met him, and blew him away with a Ego Crush (he had a 2% chance of doing so). Steven Maurer
burton@inuxg.UUCP (Thomas Burton) (01/13/84)
The said 3 level MU, had a Screech Owl as a familiar. The
familiar was sent aloft, invisible (of course) with a 15 foot piece
of string, with a loop at the bottom. Hooking the Xorn with the
string, it flew upwards. The Xorn, cut the string a number of
times, but there was always more string.....
Why in the world would the Xorn cut the string?! Why not just haul
himself up the string toward the owl and eat it? Also, how long
does it take an Owl to fly up 1/2 mile? How long does the feather
fall spell last? Since I wasn't there, I don't know all the circum-
stances, but I bet someone was sloppy with both the time keeping
and with running the Xorn. What's to prevent the Xorn from Phasing out?
Even if the party is not inaudible, pray tell me, how are the monsters
supposed to attack invisible characters? They literally can run through
the "Dungeon", dodging the swings of clumsy monsters, and get them to
fight one another.
If you would read the rules, you would see that even against invisible
creatures, monsters (or any attackers) get a chance to hit, although
it is at -4 to the normal chances. Besides, how in the world does the
invisible party maneuver without falling all over each other; when
everyone is invisible, they're invisible to each other as well! "Silence
15' radius" would just compound the problem, because then they couldn't
hear each other either. As far as dodging clumsy monsters, how many
"clumsy" monsters does your DM throw at you? In my dungeon, there are
usually several groups of intelligent (or nearly so) well-organized
groups of monsters (or even humans/demi-humans), who would have no
trouble figuring out how to locate and attack a noisy bunch of invisible
adventurers!
In typical Gygax fashon, TSR requires that you buy their magazine
to get the official patches to their buggy rules system. There is
still nothing that says that one apprentice could not Tensor's Disk
another, and vice versa. (Pulling each other up by their proverbial
britches).
I checked. The rules do imply ( I know I said IMPLY) that a MU cannot
hop on his own Disk. I do like your idea of two apprentice's sitting
on each other's disk, which might be useful in the short run. Since
you can direct your disk to move within a certain area, the one could
send his disk forward a little way, the other could then move the
disk that the previous MU was sitting on forward, etc, seesawing
back and forth. Similarly, one MU could direct his disk to always
stay x paces in front of him, while the other could direct his
disk to stay x-1 paces behind him, so they would always be chasing
each other. Of course, steering would be a problem. This IS what I would
call clever use of the spell; but it's not the same as what you were
doing to it.
Tell me, why is the statement "Why don't we all go out and kill
things to get rich" against a hobgoblins nature? I might be able to
believe that a Chaotic Evil creature would get a saving throw if it
was asked to show mercy, but not just to go out and slay.
Any lawful-good characters in your group, Steve? I would hope not with
that statement. How many charm spells are you going to throw to get
a hoard of Orcs or Hobgoblins? Besides, I know its possible to use
monsters as cannon-fodder; it's just that your article made it sound like
it was trivial, and failed to take into account some of the difficulties
and risks involved.
Procedure for capturing a basilisk (1st - 3rd level party)
1] Meet Basilisk
2] Don't Panic
3] Quickly throw your web spell (hopefully the basilisk was
surprised, so someone isn't dead yet).
4] Get your strongest fighter to put his helmet on backwards,
and have someone guide his way through the web to the
trapped basilisk.
5] Throttle the creature till it faints.
6] Put it in a box with a hole out one side. Point box in one
direction, and watch Umber Hulks die......
Well, that at least clarified the statement "Box a basilisk". However,
the parenthetical staement in 3 is one hell of a caveat. Also, your
fighter is going to wear his helm backwards? Ever worn a helm, Steve?
A little uncomfortable at best. Besides, it takes a long time for even
18 strength characters to wade through a web spell; how long does it
last? In the mean time he is tearing apart the web trying to get
to the Basilisk, who is probably also working on tearing out of the web
(how strong is a Basilisk? Good question); by the time the Fighter
gets to the Basilisk, the web would probably be weak enough to allow
the Basilisk to slip out as well. Also, the one guiding the fighter
through the web will probably be subjected to the Basilisk's gaze.
So, I'll grant you it's possible, Steve, but its not as trivial as you
made it seem.
No. The Medusa is already dead from looking at the basilik, (or
in some equally rules-buggy manner). Now, cut off the Medusa's head,
and put it on a Tensor's floating Disk. Float the head out in front
of the party. Watch dragons turn to stone.
Okay, but how long does a Medusa's head still have its magic after it's
dead (no fair resorting to Mythology)? Also, how long is it useful
before it rots? I still believe your DM's letting you off too easy with
your monsters.
>> Handling of any such poison requires great care; even Assassins must
>> make saving throws against accidental poisoning when trying to handle
>> poisons and poisoned weapons. I would probably allow the players to
>> try to extract poison from a dead creature, but there would be lots
>> of saving throws required, and the poison would have to be treated
>> by an Alchemist to put it in a suitable form for use on weapons (as
>> well as make it stable enough to keep without losing potency).
A good kludge. Isn't it a shame, that AD&D did not include such
a system in the basic rules? Even in the advanced rules??
Like hell that's a kludge! I got that out of the DMG!
Then there was the time a 1st level hobbit thief, trying to steal
a magic sword from a Black Dragon's pile of gold, accedentally woke up
the dragon. Even though he was invisible (of course), he realized that
this was one creature that would not be bothered about the nicities of
getting a direct hit in. So he attacked to Subdue!! One sucessful
3 point shot, and a 04% roll later, the 1st level hobbit rode out atop
his new dragon...... suuuuurrrreeeee.... (but the rules make it very easy
to do).
Like I said, that dragon should have looked for every opportunity to turn
against that little halfling thief. Also, high level intelligent creatures
get a chance to see invisible things. I agree that it is easier to
subdue; I've had a group do it with only a 10% chance of success; however,
sometimes the followup is neglected (which was my point).
How about Psionics?? I saw a first level thief go from 1st to 6th
level, in as many advantures, by simply going out to the local swamp and
Psionicly blowing away all the brauntasaurouses (sp?). Of course this
was not as bad as the 1st level fighter, who accedentally said
"Demogorgon", met him, and blew him away with a Ego Crush (he had a 2%
chance of doing so).
How many players in your group HAVE psionics, for goodness sake. Psionics
have their own problems (most of us realize that!), and few D.M.'s even
use them, fewer still without modifications. That fighter, by the way,
was making some really good rolls, let me tell you: less than 5% chance
of even attracting Demogorgon's attention, much less summoning him
directly (probably would have sent someone else instead), and then
to make a 2% roll for Ego Crush!? Also, your DM isn't exacting the
correct punishment for wanton use of psionics, which is lots of encounters
with other Psionic creatures (such as Intellect Devourers, Thought eaters,
Brain moles, etc).
Sure, the rules have holes; I never denied it. A good DM, however, will
know how to fix them without always resorting to rewriting the rules.
What other game systems do you play (just curious what your comparing
AD&D with).
Doug Burton
ATT-CP Indianapolis
inuxg!burtongrindal@utcsrgv.UUCP (David Grindal) (01/17/84)
The key to any AD&D game is always the GM. This is one of the things that makes it such a good game to play. The players are not forced into anything by a complex set of rules. The game never has to (or at least shouldn't) stop while the GM looks up some obscure reference in the rulebook. It also means that a great deal of enjoyment in the process depends directly on the GM. I get the feeling that Steve's GM runs the sort of game in which your characters go from 1st to 10 level in about 1 month of playing time. Wonderfully exciting if you don't mind walking around beating everything up with your 19 strength, 2 artifacts and 3 relics!! One key pupose of the GM is to apply commonsense to any situation before running to the DMG. Sure, strictly according to the rules a 1st level hobbit thief could subdue a huge, ancient black dragon. But do you for a moment think a reasonable GM should allow such a dice roll to stand? Of course not. Or if so, he should have that dragon begin plotting how to escape right away. This also applies to "Boxing a Basilisk". Let's assume that your party somehow gets this 8' long basilisk in the box. You now have to a) carry it around somehow, while the basilisk is throwing his weight around inside. If the box gets dropped, the GM should see if it broke, and you now have a very angry basilisk in the middle of your suprised party. b) try to get other monsters to look at the hole in the box. If its a small hole, very low chance. If it's a big hole, players may get some of their own medicine. All this time of course the basilisk is trying to get out. If you've ever seen mice or rats gnaw their way out of a box you know that that lizard isn't going to be boxed for long. The whole point of this tirade is that any GM worth his salt must keep the game reasonable. If I was playing with Steve's GM, I don't think I'd be playing with him for long. I know. I've played with one of that type here. It becomes a boring game after a very short time. David Grindal (..!utzoo!utcsrgv!grindal)
burton@inuxg.UUCP (01/18/84)
Here we go again:
The Xorn tried several manuvers to get out of its situation.
The first was to cut off the string. This worked for about 12
seconds until the owl got another string. The next thing it tried
was to pull on the string until it reached the end, and bat on the
owl. Unfortunately the owl just let go before it was able to
get all the way up, and when the end of the string fell down, the owl
simply grabbed it again. Then the Xorn tried yanking on the string
to try the pull the owl within reach... the string was yanked out
of the owl's grip. The Xorn tried throwing a clod of dirt at the
owl (handily provided by the DM behind the Xorn's ear), however the
players were able to convince the DM that a Xorn is not practiced
throwing dirt, while hanging upside down from a string, and so got
a -8 modifier to the roll; it missed. The owl was forced to make
a saving throw vs Poison (against it's fatigue poisons) to keep from
pooping out. The reason why the Xorn did not phase through the
string, is that the referee did not think of it..... and I highly
doubt that a Xorn in that situation would be able to think of something
the referee did not. (Also, if you read the spell discription,
it says that it affects the WEIGHT not the DENSITY -- so the Xorn's
density control did it no good).
I still say that your DM didn't run the Xorn right. A Xorn's ability
to phase through objects is an instinct; once it discovered that
it was being pulled aloft by the string, it should have instinctively
allowed the string to pass through it by phasing out. I don't understand
your last comment. The Xorn's density control is unaffected by the
spell Feather Fall; it can still phase through things in spite of its
near weightless condition. All it really had to do was to phase through
the string, float downward (since nothing was pulling it up any more)
until it reached the ground or until the spell wore off, then either
escape into the ground or else become solid again in order to attack.
One other point (preceded by a question): was this Xorn out in the
open? Xorns are underground creatures. What was it doing outside in
the open? They prefer caverns and stone, munching on precious metals
deep in the earth.
The entire point of the previous, is not that the Xorn did not
have a chance to get out of the predicament, but rather that a first
level spell should not be so powerful. Another example of problems
with this spell, is the old "hook a big one" technique: Find a Whale,
harpoon it, cast Feather Fall, lift it with a Tensor's Floating Disk.
Carry it onto dry land. Get Treasure.
Are you considering range, duration, saving throws, etc in all of this? Those
factors are supposed to be the things which keep a spell from being
so powerful. Besides which, the point of this argument may be moot: after
reading the spell Feather Fall, a different interpretation could be that
the spell only affects the downward motion of the recipient. Thus, IF
you were falling, your downward rate of motion would be reduced to
(whatever the number is) inches per minute; however, the spell does not
affect your weight at all (sort of like an invisible hand which gently
lowers you for the duration of the spell). As I remember, the spell doesn't
last very long anyway.
Besides Steve, as Prof. Kingsfield (of "The Paper Chase") once said,
"in Contract Law, you must not merely consider the Content of the contract,
but also the Intent of the parties involved." This is true of AD&D as well.
>> Sure, the rules have holes; I never denied it. A good DM, however, will
>> know how to fix them without always resorting to rewriting the rules.
>> What other game systems do you play (just curious what your comparing
>> AD&D with).
You are right. However, AD&D (and Traveller) seem to be two systems
that takes so much work to fix, that by the time you finish fixing them,
you no longer have the same system. This is called the Variant technique,
and I don't like it. As a Gamemaster, I like systems which are complete
and debugged, BEFORE I buy them.
You didn't answer my question: which games do you play besides AD&D? Are
they complete and debugged? AD&D was and is meant to be framework within
which you develop your world. D&D is even looser than AD&D; AD&D gives
more hard and fast rules for lots of nit-picky things. If something
isn't covered fully in the rules, it is left up to the DM to expand
on the rules for him- or herself (somewhere in the DMG it says that, but
I can't quote chapter and verse). Yes, it could be called Variant technique;
the Dragon is full of articles containing Variants, expansions, etc. If you
don't like doing this, that's your business. ALL FRP and SFRP games have
inconsistencies, bugs, holes, etc.; some have more than others. If you
are saying that AD&D has more than any other game, I contend that it
is because it tries to cover more than the other games.
(I know I'm going to get blasted by all the Runequesters out there for
that last statement).
Since Steve didn't bother answering my rebuttal to his Psionics statements,
I won't go on anymore on the Medusa or poisons either.
Doug Burton
ATT-CP Indianapolis
inuxg!burtonburton@inuxg.UUCP (Thomas Burton) (01/18/84)
And now, the actual Spell Listing for spell Feather Fall (this is copied straight from the Player's Handbook): Feather Fall (Alteration) Level: 1 Components: V,M Range: 1"/level Casting Time: 1/10 segment (=.6 second) Duration:1 segment/level Saving Throw: None (= 6 sec./level) Area of Effect: Special Explanation/Description: When this spell is cast, the creature(s) or objects(s) affected immediately assumes the mass of a feathery piece of down. Rate of falling is thus instantly changed to a mere constant 2' per second or 12' per segment, and no damage is incurred when landing when the spell is in effect. However, when the spell duration ceases, normal rate of fall occurs. The spell can be cast upon the magic-user or soem other creature or object up to the maximum range of 1" per level of experience of the spell caster. It lasts for 1 segment for each level of the magic-user. The feather fall affects an area of 1 cubic inch, and the maximum weight of creatures and/or objects cannot exceed a combined total equal to a base 2,000 gold pieces weight plus 2,000 gold pieces per level of the spell caster. Example: a 2nd level magic-user has a range of 2", a duration of 2 segments, a weight maximum of 6000 gold pieces (600 pounds) when employing the spell. The spell works only upon free-falling or propelled objects. It will not affect a sword blow or a charging creature, but it will affect a missile. The material component is a small feather or piece of down somewhere on the person of the spell caster. Is there still any doubt that someone abused the hell out of this spell? Read the description, Steve. Note that: 1) you can only use it on freely falling or propelled objects - that Xorn would have been unaffected by the spell; 2) the spell only lasts 6 seconds per level of the caster, so even if it had affected him somehow, it would have been in effect for only 18 seconds (you did say a 3rd level MU); 3) as for using it on a whale, there is a maximum weight that can be affected: in order to cast it on a whale, your MU would have had to have been more than 20th level (assuming that a whale weighs at least 2 tons), and even then the spell would have only lasted about 2 minutes! So tell me again just how powerful this spell is! As I stated in a previous article, Steve and his DM apparently don't read the rule books very often. Doug Burton ATT-CP Indianapolis inuxg!burton
burton@inuxg.UUCP (01/20/84)
<bug go Splat>
I have received several letters, and read several articles, over the
past few days from people who seem to be under the impression that
the argument going on between Steve Maurer and myself is over whether
or not to allow creative spell use. Not at all. I'm all in favor
of creative spell use; I encourage it (and reward it) within my dungeon
group. There is quite a difference between creativity and abuse, however.
Steve's original statement was:
I assume that you mean D & D spells.
What you are really looking for is holes in the rules systems
that allow you to do gross things. This is possible, because
D&D has never been throughly debugged. Using these holes is
fun, just as long as the monsters don't start doing likewise.
My "favorite" spell is "feather fall". This allows you
to reduce the weight of an opponent to almost nothing, and
"push" him whereever you want to. A third level MU once got
rid of a Xorn, by floating him up 1/2 a mile.....
Note that Steve was asserting that the rules had holes and bugs
which allowed him to use the spell as stated (and there were other
examples given as well). He went on to say that the rules allowed
several other abuses, and implied that as a whole the AD&D system was
so flawed that it was trivial for low level characters to mop up on
high level creatures by making use of these holes. My main point
to Steve was that it wasn't the holes and bugs which allowed him to
abuse the spells as he stated, it was his lack of knowledge about the
rules. Steve wasn't just giving examples of creative spell use, he was
attacking the AD&D game system by giving (incorrect) examples of how
the rules allowed such abuses. So you see, I wasn't coming out in
opposition to creative spell use; I was just pointing out that the holes
were all in Steve's head. We all know that AD&D has bugs and holes in
it; it's just that the examples Steve gave were not bugs, just incomplete
understanding (in some cases, complete misunderstanding) of the rules.
Hey, I'm a liberal kind of guy (no, really!). I don't sit down and add
up to the last ounce how heavy the magic-user is when he casts feather
fall to save himself from a deadly plummet. However, that same MU would
not get away with trying to levitate a whale, nor would he get away with
even one extra second of duration on Feather Fall if he (or she, I should
be saying) abuses the spell (as Steve was doing in his example). Mercy
tempered with justice, as someone stated. Many of you who posted followup
articles (and replies directly to me) probably didn't see Steve's
original posting where he talked about Boxing Basilisks, carving up
Medusa's heads, using Invisibility to run helter-skelter through dungeons,
et cetera. As I said earlier, creativity is one thing, abuse is quite
another. Twisting spell rules (or totally ignoring them, particularly
factors like duration, range, area of effect, weight limits, etc) does
not fall under the umbrella of "creativity", unless the DM has changed
a spell for his campaign (in which case the fault is not that of the AD&D
system, but of the individual DM). I am constantly called upon to make
decisions on creative spell use, particularly when the spell is poorly
worded or vague. I keep a notebook full of such rulings to insure that
I stay consistent within my universe; consistency is probably THE most
important rule of fantasy role-playing. Nothing upsets players more than
a chaotic DM, who make arbitrary rulings from one game to the next which
are totally inconsistent with each other.
Well, I've said enough. Time to step
down from my soap box. I just
wanted to clear matters up on where I stood concerning the creative
use of spells, since so many people seem to have misunderstood me.
Doug Burton
ATT-CP Indianapolis
inuxg!burtonkechkayl@ecn-ee.UUCP (01/21/84)
#R:inuxg:-25300:ecn-ee:14500007:000:915 ecn-ee!kechkayl Jan 20 13:32:00 1984 I agree. There must be a hefty dose of GM reason, or the game (and all role playing games) quickly become absurd. It seems as though the group in question have not been played very much, which will explain the Monty-Haulism. As an example of a need for GM's wisdom, look at the DMG. If you look at the 'book' price for a girdle of giant strength, you will find it to be 2500 g.p. No sane GM would allow a player to buy one for less than 10 times that. Yet I have seen a few GM's who did just that. Needless to say, all the characters had one, and the campaigns soon broke up. Another example is the Hangman's Tree (in the MMII). When fully grown, the Hangman's Tree has approximately 150% magic resistance, and well over 9000 (!!) hit points. Obviously any tree that big can eat gods for breakfast! Any Gm who runs a monster like that against any kind of a reasonable party is also insane! Thomas Ruschak
andree@uokvax.UUCP (01/24/84)
#R:inuxg:-25300:uokvax:2400028:000:1518 uokvax!andree Jan 22 01:24:00 1984 Thank you DAVID!!! Any FRP game is heavily dependent on the GM. D&D is particularly bad, as the rules are so loose that GM's have to start making their own decisions, which soon leads to rearranging the rules at will. I come from the original "Robots & Rockets" environment [we had a multiverse in the mid-70's: each GM's universe, plus any alternate time streams he cared to track], wherein all the universes of all the GM's were connected via the "teleport net" [1 gold piece can teleport you to any major city in the world; if at central teleport, to any central teleport in the multiverse], and EVERYBODY ran their own sets of rules. I quickly got used to changing rules & styles of play (and magic items - top hat +5's turning into hammers, cookies of invulnerability turning into potions, etc) as I went from universe to universe. Things that worked like a charm one day would get my characters dead the next in a different universe. The point is, a GM's style is his, and not yours. Unless he specifically asks about something (or a player asks about the reasonableness of something done to him), we probably shouldn't try to point out why what they did is silly, or rediculus, or whatever. It was done in a universe that THEY like to play in (or like to run, and can find someone who likes to play in it). Just because you wouldn't do it that way is no reason to try and convince them that what they did/was done to them was wrong. It wasn't, it was just different from how you would have done it. <mike
davis@hplabs.UUCP (01/24/84)
How come in all this time no one has pointed out that a Medusa's head is still viable (ie. can turn things into stone.) after being sepatated from her(its?) body? After all, that is what Perseus did! If you can't believe the (real!?) Greek stories, what can you believe? -- Jim Davis (James W Davis) ...!ucbvax!hplabs!davis davis.HP-Labs@Rand-Relay ----------------------------------------------------------------
rene@umcp-cs.UUCP (01/27/84)
In any game I've played in, even if a 1st level thief DID subdue a
dragon, he or she couldn't go beyond 2nd level (3rd - 1 ep) anyway, so
there's no going from 1st to 5th or 6th or anything like that. The
rule is you can't gain more than one level per adventure. If you start
off at 1st, you can use ONLY the number of ep's needed to put you at
the top of 2nd. 1 ep adventures are not allowed, in that you ALWAYS
get more than you bargained for (how is your character supposed to
know he or she needs 1 ep to 'go up a level'?).
Without this kind of rule, you just send first levelers with a high
level party, and without doing ANYthing they're suddenly 5th or 6th.
That takes all the fun out of developing your character, which is what
role-playing is all about.
- rene
--
Arpa: rene.umcp-cs@CSNet-relay
Uucp:...{allegra,seismo}!umcp-cs!reneandree@uokvax.UUCP (02/06/84)
#R:inuxg:-25300:uokvax:2400033:000:755 uokvax!andree Feb 4 17:15:00 1984 We used to run that way, with characters "pinning" at enough ep to get to level n, less one point. This led to people going on "orc-strangling" adventures, to go up by one point. Eventually, everyone shifted over to a "division" system. I.e. - when you got gobs (and gobs and gobs) of ep, you were given enough ep to go up one level. Any left over was treated as if you had earned it at your NEW level. This makes it unusual for someone to go up more than one level, and rare for someone to go up more than two. The worst case I know of was the first level getting a dragon hoard. He went from first to fourth, making fourth by a small handfull of points. Of course, I don't run with ep anymore, but the above worked VERY well while we used it. <mike