jrrt@hogpd.UUCP (R.MITCHELL) (07/13/84)
Ugh. That's the price a DM pays when being sympathetic with new players who make dumb decisions (I'm still going under the assumption that this is a new player. Am I right?). Well, I'm the DM under discussion, so I'd like to throw my perspective into the fray. One comment that should be made: the Ranger under discussion is *not* on the net, and is not in a ready position to present his side of the story. To answer your question, he is indeed new to role-playing games such as AD&D, although he is very familiar with historical simulation games. Thus, he has an excellent grasp of general melee tactics, with the exception of fitting magic into his analyses (which, I agree, is a major consideration). It's too easy to say to yourself words to the effect of "well, this guy made a dumb move, but since s/he's new, I'll give him/her a second chance." You are misinterpreting the situation. I think my players would agree, I do not give second chances lightly; the prices are always high. The current discussion really centers around whether the Ranger is playing true to his alignment, and whether the Ranger's, er, "willingness to leap into action" was endangering the party. Since DMs are by definition Neutral (sure, Rob, sure), I will not comment on the real purpose of the discussion. I will, though, jump in with remarks on what you posted. The party would enter the dungeon, fight/map a little ways through it, then leave as soon as things got a bit rough, to return the next day. I (thought I) solved this by putting a beholder at the entrance after they'd entered. First of all, I don't see a problem. If the players were inexperienced, they no doubt would need a while to build up their confidence. If they *were* experienced, then they knew what they were doing. In either case, from the party's persepective they didn't have anything that needed to be "solved." Sure, the DM can get quickly bored with such a party, so I assume that's what you saw as a problem to be fixed. But a beholder? Come, sir (or ma'am, as appropriate)! Isn't that a bit of overkill? Again, if the party was inexperienced, they didn't know how kickass a beholder is, and so would naturally attack it. If they were experienced, then again, they knew what they were getting into and must have thought they had a fair chance. I don't understand why a beholder at the entrance. If you wanted to force them deeper into the dungeon, why put Billy Badass at the front? If I was a player, I'd be petrified, and would refuse to enter that dungeon again! Thus, you seem to have reinforced the very behavior that annoyed you in the first place. If I wanted to get players deeper in the dungeon, I'd either leave maps to allegedly-rich treasures (greed is a great motivator), energize a teleporter or two (once they're deep, and see they can survive, they may be more willing to continue), provide a story whose resolution requires a deep excursion, etc. Well, needless to say, the fools ATTACKED it! I didn't want to just kill them all off (the same sympathy for new players) so I separated them into two groups, took away all their armor and weapons, and left them to huddle in the dark. I explained this improbable event by Divine Intervention: the beholder did in fact kill them, but the Gods Were Kind, and resurrected them, At A Price. Different strokes...but you'll never see Divine Intervention in my dungeon as a means of saving the party, without the players initiating it and without a tough die roll being made. So here's my recommendation: the time for sympathy is over. The next time this Ranger-cum-Paladin gets himself killed (do you roll monster to-hit rolls behind a screen? If so, it's easy to fudge a mortal blow.) have him appear before the Gods (a chance for some real creative scenery here), who are displeased that he has taken their mercy for granted. 1) "Fudging" die rolls is cheating. If I caught a player fudging rolls, that character would find him/her/itself on the 666th Plain so quick...How can I hold high standards of honesty for the players if I as the DM don't have them? 2) The rest of your comments, although enlightening, are irrelevant to the real "problem." I don't intend to sound like I'm flaming; I'm merely trying to say you're answering the wrong question. Rob Mitchell {allegra,ihnp4,pegasus}!hogpd!jrrt