js2j@mhuxt.UUCP (sonntag) (07/13/84)
Someone mentioned recently that they thought that it was unethical for a DM to fudge die rolls. I agree with this, and have always managed to avoid it, until I ran into a reocurring problem recently. I DM a mid-low level campaign in AD&D; we use a system where a natural 20 counts for double damage. What am I supposed to do when the party is in melee with a group of monsters which should be reasonably easy for the party to defeat and I find that I can roll nothing but 18,19, and 20 for "to hit" rolls? I've met this problem several times now, (never when I'm playing, only when I'm DMing), and every time I end up nearly destroying the party with monsters which the party could normally be expected to wipe up the floor with. So, when I get to the point where ~1/3 of the party is dead and the rest have ~10% of their hit points left, I've started to fudge the die rolls, telling the party that they were missed when in fact I had just rolled very high numbers. Don't get me wrong, I don't mind killing off an entire party if they do something VERY stupid. What I do mind, however, is having the dice become so out of whack that four zombies slaughter an entire nicely balanced party of five third to fourth level types. I've even gone to the point of switching my d20's with the party's in hopes that they would then get the high rolls, but it doesn't seem to help; I just roll consistently high with their dice then. Has anyone had this problem? Has anyone found a solution? Or a cause? I've begun to suspect that I have some kind of subconscious telekinetic ability which operates in just the opposite way of what I want. :-) This theory is borne out by the fact that when I am playing instead of DMing, I can roll low almost as consistently. Jeff Sonntag
mwm@ea.UUCP (07/16/84)
#R:mhuxt:-20700:ea:3600005:000:808 ea!mwm Jul 15 22:09:00 1984 No, I've never had the problem of consistently bad rolls for a party. I have fudged dice for the party before (never, never, never fudge dice against the party - monster actions, maybe, but not dice. It is indeed unethical). The situation I ran into was the "impossible encounter" (you want to know the probability of rolling 4 consecutive 6's?) for a parties first encounter. If they had met the dragon, they would have been dead. I knew, and they would have known it. I threw the roll out, and rolled again. Those are really the only conditions I will fudge dice on: the party is about to get screwed by something incredibly unlikely. If it would have been a win for them to meet the dragon, or if they had been wondering around for a while and had had some other encounters, I'd have let it by. <mike
elt@astrovax.UUCP (Ed Turner) (07/16/84)
The opinion has been expressed that it is cheating for the DM to fudge die rolls. Not being an AD&D player I cannot directly comment in a sense but assuming an AD&D DM to be perfectly analogus to a Traveller Referee (with which I am familiar), I would strongly disagree and argue that it is poor refereeing (or DMing) to let the dice rule when the game would be improved by direct decisions. My view of refereeing is that it is quite similar to entertaining; it is the referee's responsibility to see that the players have as much *fun* as possible. For a sophisticated group of players this requires a "realistic" fantasy universe in which bad things can and sometimes do go wrong. Thus, the requirement does not necessarily mean taking it easy on the players. From this perspective, die rolls are simply a tool for the referee to use as needed. Their primary advantage over straight referee decisions is that they introduce an element of real randomness which is very hard to produce without some mechanical aid (try making up a long list of truly random numbers some time). This insures neutrality and saves time; refereeing would certainly be much more difficult without some sort of random numberr generator. Nevertheless, when a very lucky or unlucky roll or series of rolls threatens to ruin a game, I see no reason for the referee not to ignore or circumvent them. More rarely a game may be improved by some very unlikely outcome (i.e., most good adventure yarns have at least one or a few strange coincidences or unlikely successes buried in their plots), and again the referee's guidance can make all the difference between a dull situationand a breath taking one. Of course, the more subtly the referee can intervene the better the effect; the players should never suspect if that can be managed. In summary, forbidding a referee (DM) to over rule die rolls is like forbidding a stage magician from distracting the audience. It makes for a fairer but poorer show. Ed Turner astrovax!elt
berry@zinfandel.UUCP (Berry Kercheval) (07/16/84)
I've played with a DM who I am SURE fudged his rolls, but no-one minded (mound?) because the game was fun and interesting. He denied fudging, and it was hard to tell, since of course the tables, etc. for his dungeon were 'secret', and he developed the habit of always rolling the dice. Me: "Healy swings at the sand-worm" Mark: (rattle rattle) "He hits -- 276 points damage with that +7 power- sword -- it dies" Me: "Austin casts 'cure light wounds'" Mark: (rattle rattle) "OK, everyone is cured except FroBozz" Me: "Hey, Mark, want another beer?" Mark: (rattle rattle) "Yeah, and get some more pretzels while you're up" I did get a bit annoyed when later on, Austin drank some 'magic coffee' and wound up going from fourth level lawful-neutral MU to 21st level chaotic evil undead lich. (Austin was promptly declared a NPC and lost interest in the party) But \I/ rolled the percentile dice for the Magic Coffee table -- four double-zeros in a row. My own fault, I guess..... Berry Kercheval Zehntel Inc. (ihnp4!zehntel!zinfandel!berry) (415)932-6900
mr-frog@sdcsvax.UUCP (07/17/84)
<> I think that fudging die rolls in order to harm players is *incredibly* crass. However, a bit of niceness can always be excused, as long as you don't have to continually do it. How to fix your problem? Get rid of the double-damage-on-a-twenty rule. I mean, 20's are nice, but what do double-damage rules really add to the game? All I can see is simply more unpredictability; another factor tossed in that really doesn't need to be there. You could also get rid of any "fumble" rules you may have while you are at it (to balance things out). Dave Pare [ucbvax | dcdwest]!sdcsvax!mr-frog
dave@uwvax.ARPA (07/17/84)
I also have been known to fudge die rolls when the dice have been
particularily random (i.e. not rolling anything close to what was
needed to move the game in the direction I wanted). There are a
number of reasons for the screen for a DM, and this seems like a
good one. Not that I fudge rolls often, I have been frustrated many
times when a certain encounter should pose a problem for the party,
but my dice roll nothing but low numbers, making the encounter a
total flop (what do you do when your mage needs a 2 to make his saving
through and rolls a 1, thus getting silenced(!) by the party's lower
level magician?).
--
Dave Cohrs @ wisconsin
...!{allegra,heurikon,ihnp4,seismo,ucbvax,uwm-evax}!uwvax!dave
dave@wisc-rsch.arpabrad@ut-sally.UUCP (Brand @ Institute for the Denial of Reality, N.E.) (07/18/84)
There is a saying among trial lawyers:
"Never ask a question unless you are already SURE of the answer"
For DM/GM's that should be
"Never roll the dice unless you're sure the outcome is acceptable"
Brad Blumenthal {No reasonable request refused}
{ctvax,ihnp4,harvard,gatech,seismo}!brad@ut-sallybrianp@shark.UUCP (Brian Peterson) (07/18/84)
"Don't become a slave to the dice" Righto! "Let's play DnD!" "Ok. Once upon a time, Fnord, the blacksmith's son, went out to seek his fortune. The clod fell off a rickety wooden bridge and died." "Oh, well. So much for DnD. Wanna play tiddly winks?" or "All of a sudden, he wasn't really dead any more, climbed back onto the bridge, and went on." Brian Peterson, tektronix!shark!brianp
srt@ucla-cs.UUCP (07/20/84)
I think the current trend in FRP games is toward reducing the effects of
dice on the outcome of the game. Typically this is done in two ways:
1. Increase the frequency and diminish the importance of die rolls (as
in, for instance, RQ!). This allows the Law of Large Numbers a
chance to take effect.
2. Eliminate die rolls. I don't think any commercially available games
take this route for marketing reasons (i.e., hard to convince a Rug
Rat to buy a game that requires thought), but a number of systems have
been presented in fanzines such as Alarums and Excursions that take
this approach: hit-point-less systems and so on.
I don't currently play any ``live'' FRP, but in the PBM game I DM, I don't
use dice at all. My goal as a DM is to create an exciting, involving
fantasy adventure. If dice could help me do this, I would gladly use them,
but I find that my native creativity provides me with more than enough
material.
I think dice are primarily used because of the time constraints involved
in real-time FRP. They are simply a convenient and quick short cut. Viewed
this way, it is clear that the DM should discard any die rolls he doesn't
particularly like. To put it another way, if the outcome of an action is
important, don't relegate it to a die roll: adjudicate it.
I don't want to be a snob, but if, as some comments seem to indicate, you
are doing random generation of monsters and treasure and so on (caught in
the EGG paradigm) then you might want to try abandoning that style of play.
It is more difficult, but equally more rewarding, to play in a game that
has been carefully thought out, rather than randomly generated.
-- Scott Turnernathan@mit-eddie.UUCP (Nathan Glasser) (07/22/84)
<For the intellect devourer> In response to the article about the blank dice used by the DM, I would like to tell what my DM often does. When a player wants to disbelieve something, the DM picks up a pair of percentile dice and rolls them, all the time looking the player straight in the face, and declares, "It's still there..." Nathan Glasser ..genrad!mit-eddie!nathan ..decvax!yale-comix!nglasser
dave@uwvax.ARPA (08/01/84)
> An example, in case you don't believe me: > >10 orcs surprise the party. The MU and one thief are unconscious. The party > gets the initiative. The remaining thief climbs up to the ceiling, and hangs > there. The two fighters kill the orcs, sustaining no damage. Have you considered more challenging monsters? Also, try separating the party, or get a turncoat NPC in their midst (humans are a *much* more challenging monster, more challenging (read fun) to play for the DM too). Hitting isn't everything. Also, why didn't the orcs throw things at that thief? From his place on near ceiling, he couldn't have his dexterity as he was busy hanging onto the wall. Also, he must have had his back to the orcs. Easy bate, and not the position I like my thieves in... -- Dave Cohrs @ wisconsin ...!{allegra,heurikon,ihnp4,seismo,ucbvax,uwm-evax}!uwvax!dave dave@wisc-rsch.arpa