israel@qantel.UUCP ( Renegade) (08/14/84)
< Imagine having YOUR line here! > Look, people, let's be practical about this - a backstab is just that - a backSTAB. One does not stab with a sling bullet or any other missile weapon. The extra damage accruing from a successful backstab attack is a combination of the thief's knowledge and experience in knowing where to strike IN ADDITION TO his attacking a surprised victim who is basically unable to protect himself, allowing the thief to drive his sword deeper into the wound, thus resulting in more damage. A missile attack does not permit the thief to drive the weapon deeper into the wound (since he simply isn't there), and so can only manage normal damage at best - barring a critical hit, of course. As for assassins, if they attack with surprise, they get an assassination roll. That's what they're for, dammit! Why attack in thief mode when they got that going for them? Besides, any assassin who doesn't coat his weapons with contact poison should be drummed out of the guild (and we all know what THAT means, don't we?). No assassins don't get extra damage with surprise missile attacks either, but they do get the assassination roll. So the smart assassin attacks with poison-coated arrows, which in a surprise attack, will automatically hit (requiring at least a saving throw from the victim vs. poison), plus the assassination roll, plus normal damage if the guy is still alive. And the smart thief? He must be physically present behind his victim to perform a successful backstab, but since he doesn't hit automatically with surprise, he must be prepared to melee. If he hits, he wants to make sure he does mucho damage, so he should either use a long sword, or, if he has magical weapons, one with the highest minimum damage (ie, most plusses), which improves his chance to hit, and makes sure he does some worth-while wounding. (It seems to me, based on the DMG description that a really sneaky thief might conceivably manage to succussfully backstab somebody with a dancing sword, seeing as the sword is supposed to attack as the weilder does. In this situation, the thief would not have to be standing in the immediate vicintity of the victim, although this is the only such exception that occurs to me.) From the world of New Orc City Renegade ucbvax!dual!qantel!israel "I'm not worried - I've got a ring of DM control!"
pkh@rabbit.UUCP (Paul Pavlidis) (08/16/84)
I disagree with the statement that a thief only gains multiple damage when using a pointed, penetrating weapon. I quote the PH: "Backstabbing is the striking of a blow from behind, be it with club, dagger, or sword." The fact that a club cannot be pushed further into a wound does not mean it cannot cause double or triple damage when used by a thief. But this is not my main point. I see no reason why the following cannot take place: a thief armed with a sling sees his victim down the street, facing away from him. The thief, because he has the advantage of surprise, is able to aim with greater care for a vital point. He slings, and because of his great skill with the weapon, fells the victim. Another note-- what if the thief was using daggers to throw? These definitely penetrate and a well timed and aimed throw could go deeper. The thief does not have the advantage of double damage when lacking surprise or attacking from the front because he does not have time to take very careful aim (the thief gets +4 to hit from behind by the same token). I must say, though, that the thief will not be able to use his skills fully, because as said, he is not right there. He may get only +3 to hit and not get double damage unless he is above level four--the details are not important. In addition, I also think that the list club, dagger, and sword could be interpreted as those are the only weapons you could use to backstab with, but I don't think so. The list probably serves only as examples, and should incluce other weapons used by thieves, and assassins. Another thing- it is true that thieves or assassins could make better use of their abilities by attacking from nearby, or in the case of the assassin make an assassination roll. But this is not always the case. For a low level assassin, the chance to hit could far exceed the chance to assassinate and be just as deadly. For the low level thief, it may be that croodling up on a victim is too difficult because of a difficult move silently roll. A missile weapon is the alternative available. This is often the case with lower level characters--they have to use different tactics than higher level characters to make the best of their situations. from the world of Kemen Paul Pavlidis
dave@uwvax.ARPA (08/17/84)
Let's not forget that the PH and DMG are *guidelines*, not laws (it wouldn't
be fun if they were laws, now would it?). If it makes sense to allow
the backstab concept for throwing (it does to me), then allow it. If you
want to decrease damage/to-hit for the throw vs. direct attack, then do it.
If you add a new weapon, are you going to exclude it from being used in
backstabbing (assuming you allow the thief to use it) just because the PH
doesn't mention it?
In any case, if you and group you game with decide to allow using a sling,
etc. in a 'backstab' attack, then you are following the rules, because you
make the rules, and your GM enforces them. Guidelines are just that,
guidelines.
--
Dave Cohrs @ wisconsin
...!{allegra,heurikon,ihnp4,seismo,ucbvax,uwm-evax}!uwvax!dave
dave@wisc-rsch.arpafaustus@ucbvax.UUCP (Wayne Christopher) (08/19/84)
If a thief is to get a bonus for backstabbing with a thrown weapon, he should be very good with the thrown weapon. If he is standing in back of someone, it is not difficult to aim where the dagger is going to go in, and because he is a thief, he knows where best to put it. But regardless of whether he knows where to place an arrow, can he actually hit that particular point? He would have to be quite a marksman to be able to do this consistently. I think because of this, backstab bonus should be restricted to those weapons that can actually be aimed easily, i.e. handheld weapons (and maybe high-powered rifles with telescopic sights). Wayne