slb@drutx.UUCP (Sue Brezden) (04/08/85)
There has been some discussion of ways to keep magic users from obtaining mass quantities of magic objects. This is along the same line. When do you know that PCs have too many goodies? What is your favorite way of separating PCs from their funds--the nastier and more devious the better, of course. I am an inexperienced DM and could use some pointers. I don't think that I've given them too much yet, but it may be time to taketh away. I am interested in neat scenerios and possible adventure kick-offs, as well as in general principles. If the methods are REALLY nasty and devious, better send mail rather than post--two of my players read this newsgroup! -- Sue Brezden Real World: Room 1B17 Net World: ihnp4!drutx!slb AT&T Information Systems 11900 North Pecos Westminster, Co. 80234 (303)538-3829 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Honk if you love Shiva! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
csc@watmath.UUCP (Computer Sci Club) (04/09/85)
>When do you know that PCs have too many goodies? When they no longer get in trouble. If there are problems like "How are we going to beat up that <whatever>", or "Uh, guys, I'm down to n (where n is small) hit points." you know that they still are having to use their heads and are not relying (exclusively - sp?) on items. > What is your >favorite way of separating PCs from their funds--the nastier >and more devious the better, of course. The nastiest way I can think of is to make them use it. > but it may be time to taketh away. It's ALWAYS time to taketh away. >I am interested in neat scenerios and possible adventure kick-offs, >as well as in general principles. The above should fit the bill perfectly. The party has a <blank> of <blank> slaying? Two scenarios immediately pop into mind. The first is obviously having to fight a <blank>. (That's <blank> as in <blank>, not as in <blank>. Who would fight a <blank>, anyway? :-) The second is some NPC type wants to fight a <blank>, hears that the party has a <blank> of <blank> slaying, and then endeavours to get it from them. Remember that NPCs are PCs too! > Sue Brezden >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Honk if you love Shiva! >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ honk honk Gilles Dignard University of Waterloo Ontario, Canada
js2j@mhuxt.UUCP (sonntag) (04/09/85)
> There has been some discussion of ways to keep magic users from > obtaining mass quantities of magic objects. This is along the > same line. > > When do you know that PCs have too many goodies? What is your > favorite way of separating PCs from their funds--the nastier > and more devious the better, of course. I am an inexperienced > DM and could use some pointers. I don't think that I've given > them too much yet, but it may be time to taketh away. I don't have any real good ideas offhand for fleecing PC's, but I have been given a demonstration twice in the last year (by my DM) in how *NOT* to fleece PCs. Remember: PCs *sincerely* resent finding out that a given scenario was made up by the DM for the sole purpose of seperating them from their much-loved magic items. An example (from a recent campaign): about 7 PCs, of levels 7-9 or so, a well balanced party who have each acquired quite a bit of magic during their travels. They open the next door in this medium level dungeon they've been clearing out. KAZAM! They are *ALL* breathed on by a (get this) a sapphire dragon. ALL normal materials are disintegrated, players must save versus disintegration, *ALL* magic items must save versus disintegration at -4. We ended up losing about 2/3 of our magic, and about 95% of our tempers. MY GAUNTLETS OF OGRE STRENGTH WERE DISINTEGRATED! Everyone lost many of their favorite things. But it was obvious that the DM had set this up just to fleece us, and we sorely resented it. It's much better if you can find a way to fleece your PCs while letting them think that they had a decent chance to avoid losing their stuff, but it was lost because of a mistake on *their* part. -- Jeff Sonntag ihnp4!mhuxt!js2j "You're from Joisey? I'm from Joisey!" "Which exit?"
faustus@ucbcad.UUCP (04/10/85)
It's always easy to do if you have some stupid players -- give them a chance to attack something really powerful, and if they do have the thing be "merciful" and only take all their posessions and leave them hanging from their feet naked in a cave... Wayne
ee163acp@sdcc13.UUCP (DARIN JOHNSON) (04/10/85)
> There has been some discussion of ways to keep magic users from > obtaining mass quantities of magic objects. This is along the > same line. > > When do you know that PCs have too many goodies? What is your > favorite way of separating PCs from their funds--the nastier > and more devious the better, of course. I am an inexperienced > DM and could use some pointers. I don't think that I've given > them too much yet, but it may be time to taketh away. Well, unless your players are very good friends of yours, don't be too devious or nasty, it takes away from their fun too. My best suggestion is too arrange an encounter where they will be forced to use up most of their charged items (also scrolls and potions). They won't look to you as stealing their magic, but rather think that they were glad they had it in the first place. For magic swords of drain life (+5 of course) I suggest have a monster that can drain magic (a magical Xorn or something) and have it drain a relatively expendable item. The players will probably try to depend upon other means than these valuable magic items. However, when their life is in the balance, they may end up sacrificing these (of their own free will) to save themselves. I know most players should be used to having magic items disappear, but when it is only there first and second favorite item, they get suspicious. Another good method that lets the players in on the fun is to have a master theif or assasin steal this item. When the players follow the (not too obvious) trail and capture this theif, he will have claimed to have sold it to somebody. This can lead into a major quest if the item was very valuable (or sentimental :-) ). For things like a girdle of fire giant strength (my nemesis) there are a few suggestions. One, have the object lower in value after a particularly vexing encounter, such as putting a nick in a magic sword. This is much more plausible when it was used against a magical creature. My solution for the girdle is to have all fire giants know the key word to turn them off (heretofore unknown, sages may pay handsomely for this magic word). If you are in a really nasty mood, have the giant reach down, unbuckle it and walk off (if the players let him). After a few encounters like this, players tend to be more conservative in their playing. Sorry to post this if your players read, but I think other people have the same problem. Anyway, be creative, not devious. Darin Johnson
hollombe@ttidcc.UUCP (The Polymath) (04/10/85)
In article <2441@drutx.UUCP> slb@drutx.UUCP writes: >When do you know that PCs have too many goodies? What is your >favorite way of separating PCs from their funds--the nastier >and more devious the better, of course. >I am interested in neat scenerios and possible adventure kick-offs, >as well as in general principles. Here's what my DM did to my high-level fighter when he got to cocky with his funds: He got mugged! Scenario ran about like this: Fighter visits his investment banker (that's another story) to make a deposit of gp 100,000 (equivalent in gems). Along the way he's spotted by a high-level thief with a treasure-detect item (DM says it was a die-roll. Would he lie? Naaah. (-: ). After leaving his banker he gets hit from behind by two poisoned daggers that put him to sleep. (Note: at this point he has a chance to escape if he thinks fast enough to activate a recall item before he goes under. Our DM is nothing if not fair. My fighter is nothing if not stupid. (-: ). He awakes stripped naked, chained to a stone wall, wearing a helmet that blocks most telepathy, being interrogated by a master telepath. He's ultimately forced to make out a withdrawal note signed over to the thief. During a valiant escape attempt (actually ripped the chains out of the wall and was working on the door) he's knocked out again and awakes naked in a field several hundred miles from home next to a small pouch of food and a thank-you note (nice touch, that). Needless to say, fighter is angry (and embarrassed). It's not so much the money as all the magic armor and weaponry he's lost in the bargain. When he finally gets home, it develops there's been a number of similar robberies of high-level types around town. He rounds up his friends to help, and so begins the adventure of the attempt to capture the thief ... but that, too, is another story. -- -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_- The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe) Citicorp TTI 3100 Ocean Park Blvd. Santa Monica, CA 90405 (213) 450-9111, ext. 2483 {philabs,randvax,trwrb,vortex}!ttidca!ttidcc!hollombe
krs@amdahl.UUCP (Kris Stephens) (04/11/85)
> There has been some discussion of ways to keep magic users from > obtaining mass quantities of magic objects. This is along the > same line. > > When do you know that PCs have too many goodies? What is your > favorite way of separating PCs from their funds (...) > > Sue Brezden As a player (I've DMed exactly once), I always want this done within the context of a consistent world and not arbitrarily. I've played in magically sparse worlds and Monty Hall worlds, and tend to have more fun in the latter. Rationale: In magically sparse worlds, one tends to spend more time battling Orcs and 1st-3rd Fighters than in magically affluent worlds. I think it's more fun for the DM, too, to play almost the entire realm of monsters and dieties. One way to deal with "too many magic items" is to beef up the opponents by level and class. Make sure the party comes across times when it's better to negotiate or split than fight. Be prepare, though, for very creative uses of spells and items (that's what we're playing for, isn't it?). I agree that as long as the party is having HP problems and breaking out into cold sweats, there's not too much magic. If your party is walking through your best, it's time to weaken it. Every time a party is hit by a fireball, roll saves for scrolls, staves, and any other perishable items. Do this CONSISTENTLY. Do the same for all environmental attacks. A low level character with an outrageous magic item should draw baddies like a magnet to take it away from him. If he can defend it, he can keep it. Worse comes to worse, and if the play is impossible due to magic item wealth, gate the party to another plane for an adventure and have the gate-fee be the destruction of each character's strongest magic item. Throw them into a dungeon where items get teleported from them by some baddie or other whenever they stop for rest. What- ever you do, do it consistently over the years. Oh, standard player's philosophy should be that scrolls and potions are expendable (harking back to my environmental comment), and will be after you've torched the entire supply on 'em two or three times. The best way to remove magic items is to have them used up! > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Honk if you love Shiva! > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Nupe: If you were honkin' for Freya, I'd get out my tuba! Melchior, Bard a.k.a. -- Kris Stephens (408-746-6047) {whatever}!amdahl!krs [The opinions expressed above are mine, solely, and do not ] [necessarily reflect the opinions or policies of Amdahl Corp. ]
west@utcsri.UUCP (Thomas L. West) (04/13/85)
By polymorphing them into sheep, of course. --------------------------- Tom L. West Another test to flame Another prof to blame And nail that problem set to the wall. -The Poslfit Blues
ncg@ukc.UUCP (N.C.Gale) (04/19/85)
In article <2441@drutx.UUCP> slb@drutx.UUCP writes: >When do you know that PCs have too many goodies? What is your >favorite way of separating PCs from their funds?... One of the most rewarding tricks that I employ on my players is to have an NPC (or group of NPCs) which is just slightly more powerful than the party. This NPC is continually bumping into the party, beating three shades out of them, but not actually killing them, only swiping all their hard-earned treasure. Gradually the players get to really *hate* the NPC, so when they eventually do kill him/her, their little faces are lit up for weeks. And, of course they get some of their treasure back. Having lots of NPCs (good and bad) also gives the GM a chance to roleplay in his own campaign. -Nige Gale
slb@drutx.UUCP (Sue Brezden) (04/21/85)
I received many good mail items in response to my previous posting. Thought I'd share them with the net. _____________________________________________________________________ Fleecing PC's eh? Well, years ago, in one campaign, our DM made the mistake of allowing us to get several nasty magic items. For example, a Rod of Lordly Might ! and a Robe of Scantillating Colours (did i spell that write ?) At any rate, things got a little out of hand. Our character with the RoLM didn't know how to use it, and kept screwing up. The RoSC became an awesome weapon, save or be stunned, so we'd turn it on, and start moving through the dungeon, killing as we went. This was not good. So the DM made a change. The Rod of Lordly Might became the Rod of Lardly Might, able to shoot oil (flaming) at creatures. For extra charges, it could work as a flame thrower. But it removed all the problems of dealing with a RoLM. The Robe became a Robe of Scantillating Curves, enabling the wearer to appear as a Dryad. Again, useful, but effective in reducing the Magic of the Character. I also seem to remember my Robe of Useful Items becoming a Robe of Useless Items (a dead rat instead of a door !?!). This method worked, with little dissention because we all knew that we had too much magic, and the game was getting out of hand. Perhaps you can place them up against a powerful MU, who casts a spell, then runs. This spell would change the items. Jim Sullivan --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sue, The problem in our campaign is not Magic-Users, but Thieves. Perhaps I shouldn't call them Thieves, byt Syndics. Mages spend so much time in research and what not that they don't have time to raise money, and we have kept enchanting prices very high. Anyway, the solution to the problem is a very sophisticated version of the stagecoach robbery. One or two top-flight (13th + levels) thieves organize a group of advancible npc's to hit the party and help steal their items. The attacking group will need to be well-balanced in terms of character classses, with plenty of healing magic around, and plenty of other magic. We have found that a group with surprise, and prepared spells can do wonders! Remember though, that you don't want to fireball the items to pieces and that the thieves aren't trying to kill the party-members, although this can happen accidentally. As we play Greyhawk-style D&D the attackers would be HASTED, some would be INVISIBLE (probably the top thieves, to let them get the backstab multiplier) and SILENCE spells would be laid down on top of the parties spell-casters. Anyway, that's the brute forece method. A more fun method perhaps, is to persuade the players to give up their items. We call this con artistry. ~r .trailer ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- A DM I played for a few years ago pulled a nasty trick on us. We managed to get teleported from the surface into an underground cavern, minus all possessions -- all we had left were our skivvies. After creating some makeshift weapons out of sticks, we managed to survive and return to the surface, where we found all of our possesions except for our magic items. My fighter lost two very nice magic weapons, never to be found again. As a player, it wasn't much fun. One possibility would be some sort of magic-destroying trap. Any magic items taken into this trap (perhaps a room or corridor) are affected in some way: they disintegrate, they lose some or all of their magic, they reverse their magic (+2 sword becomes -2, etc.), of course without the player's knowledge until the next time they try to use it. Maybe each PC has to make a saving throw for each magic item they are carrying. They should be given some chance of recognizing the trap as a potentially nasty trap, rather than having them blindly stumble into it and lose their magic, and innovative PCs should be able to figure out some way to dispel it (but not too easy :-) A brutal way would be to kill all the PCs, forcing everyone to roll up new ones (I did this once, accidentally, while GMing RuneQuest). Since everyone dies, nobody survives to recover the magic. The next group of PCs perhaps could go on a quest to recover the missing bodies and magic items. Or have the PCs captured somehow, and the captor demands one magic item per head before they may be released. Alan Bland, druxp!mab ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Well in my dungeon I have a very simple scheme: I give each player an additional number known as thier "church rateing" (a number which is based on their donations to the local church, and which exibits exponential growth and diminishing returns). This rateing effects how much they must pay for church services (like having them do a resurection). To get and maintain a rateing of about 20 costs about 30% of all treasure found (at 20 they can get resurections at a cost measured in 100's not 1000's or more). They need a rateing of about 70-80 to get everything free (though there is a limit due to the limited staff at the church). The church remembers all, and a failure to give a suitable donation has a negative effect for some time. A negative rateing (of course) increases the costs exponentially. This method has kept my players poor for over 10 years (real time). Another method I've seen is to only give experience for SPENDING money, not finding it. Usually a player has to specify a catagory (or several) for which such spending will count (e.g. "wine, women, and song"). Any money spent on other things don't gain experience, nor does money not spent at all. Hope this helps. Ray ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > When do you know that PCs have too many goodies? When they are finding things easy. When they are faced with a puzzle, they should have to think about it; the outcome of a combat should be sufficiantly unpredictable that they worry or become tense. "sufficiently" is a little tricky here. The important things are: 1) be fair. Give the NPCs an even break too. Let THEM go up levels... 2) be consistent. Nothing is worse than having to go back on your word (so be vague now and again! Use phrases like "you see what appears to be a..." "it looks like...", and "as far as you can tell..".) 3) watch out for bored players. Combat can help occasionally (once per four or five sessions, perhaps, before someone says "look out, don't yawn or we'll get an encounter!" :-) ), as can "you notice a..." or "you meet a.. <npc> who only speaks ..., or who used to live at...or ... 4) yes, USE NPCs. There should always be a few floating around. One or two might have to go with them for some PLAUSIBLE reason, so that advice & the odd bit of high power magic might be available. 5) I prefer to start out PCs at 1st level. No magic items. By the time they get to 3rd level, maybe a magic (+1) sword/dagger or two. But if a player joins in late, a robe of useful items or something similar can leave the other players wondering what soert of fellow is this new PC? (and they won't trust him...) >What is your favorite way of separating PCs from their funds--the nastier >and more devious the better, of course. 1) don't give them much (easier said than done.. may be too late).. hand out silver coins instead of gold... 2) there's a TAX on entering the town/crossing the tollbridge 3) that NPC is an 8th level thief... 4) where are they carrying it? It's quite heavy. There are no free banks, they charge. Bury it & get it dug up (10%/month in a town?)... 5) inflation - if they've been in 1 place for a while, prices rise.. 6) the Inland Revenue Inspector has a briefcase of devouring [:-):-)] 7) [topical...] buying material components/magic sword/rings... note that the items have a chance of failing. no? Give them one! (and DON'T tell the players what it is!!!!!) Finally, NEVER fleece players. The NPCs might, but YOU DON'T!!! if you do, your players might well start looking for another DM.... All the best.. If there's anything else, you only have to ask... - Russell ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Thanks to all who responded. I would try to thank you personally--and still may, but some large hairy monster has been scaring my mail back to me from various paths. -- Sue Brezden Real World: Room 1B17 Net World: ihnp4!drutx!slb AT&T Information Systems 11900 North Pecos Westminster, Co. 80234 (303)538-3829 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Honk if you love Shiva! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
geoff@ISM780.UUCP (04/26/85)
The question is: What does one do about parties with so much magic that they can do a cakewalk in Hades? Many good answers have been posted, but if all else fails, try the "Fourth of July Special*". This is a room, corridor, chest, or whatever that is inhabited by an alien (off-plane) being who lives on magical energy. Usually the trap is set off (read: Creature is awakened) by the use of magic in the area (the size of said area being the DM's option). The effects are not subtle: EVERY MAGIC ITEM RELEASES ITS POWER IMMEDIATELY. (potions act as if ingested by the bearer, scrolls read themselves, wands start shooting off charges, weapons begin acting like dancing swords, etc.) If the DM is kind-hearted, s/he may ignore the possibility of the "multiple potion" side effects discussed in the DMG. If the types of magic carried by the party are well balanced WRT offense/defense, no one will be hurt too much, if not, the DM could make adjustments as needed (perhaps the "creature" inhabiting the trap will set off an anti-magic shell scroll which just happens to be lying in the corner nearest the wimp characters). The party now has a problem, to wit: "How the hell do we get out of here?", the description of the events should prove amuzing enough to allay(sp?) any bad feelings on the part of the worst-hit party members, and many heavy-duty magic items will have to be left behind. This will provide another adventure for the day the party is truly powerful enough to try to get the stuff back, by which time the amount of magic to "rescue" will be more in line with the DM's idea of game balance. The "creature" is not a violent soul, just hungry. The permanently enchanted magic items will keep flying around and swinging at everything that moves as long as there is a corporeal creature in the area of effect. (Some sort of being native to this plane is needed as a "focus" or "gate" for this power to manifest.) To get rid of the creature a gate *might* work (if you can figure out where to gate the creature to), but some or all of the magic items in the area will go through the gate with the creature. Mucho cash can be used on Sage consultation to find out where the gate should go, if excess cash is also a problem. * The original idea comes from "The Dragon Tree Book of Tricks, Traps, and Encounters" copyright Dragon Tree Press. I recommend getting ahold of everthing these people have published -- Great Stuff! (for DMs only!)