[net.games.frp] How do YOU fleece PCs?

slb@drutx.UUCP (Sue Brezden) (04/08/85)

There has been some discussion of ways to keep magic users from
obtaining mass quantities of magic objects.  This is along the
same line.

When do you know that PCs have too many goodies? What is your 
favorite way of separating PCs from their funds--the nastier 
and more devious the better, of course.  I am an inexperienced 
DM and could use some pointers.  I don't think that I've given 
them too much yet, but it may be time to taketh away.

I am interested in neat scenerios and possible adventure kick-offs,
as well as in general principles.

If the methods are REALLY nasty and devious, better send mail
rather than post--two of my players read this newsgroup!
-- 

                                     Sue Brezden
                                     
Real World: Room 1B17                Net World: ihnp4!drutx!slb
            AT&T Information Systems
            11900 North Pecos
            Westminster, Co. 80234
            (303)538-3829 

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csc@watmath.UUCP (Computer Sci Club) (04/09/85)

>When do you know that PCs have too many goodies?

When they no longer get in trouble.  If
there are problems like "How are we going to beat up
that <whatever>", or "Uh, guys, I'm down to n (where n is small)
hit points." you know that they still are having to use their
heads and are not relying (exclusively - sp?) on items. 

>                                                 What is your
>favorite way of separating PCs from their funds--the nastier 
>and more devious the better, of course.

The nastiest way I can think of is to make them use it.

>                   but it may be time to taketh away.

It's ALWAYS time to taketh away.
 
>I am interested in neat scenerios and possible adventure kick-offs,
>as well as in general principles.

The above should fit the bill perfectly.
The party has a <blank> of <blank> slaying?  Two scenarios immediately
pop into mind.  The first is obviously having to fight a <blank>.
(That's <blank> as in <blank>, not as in <blank>.  Who would fight
a <blank>, anyway? :-)
The second is some NPC type wants to fight a <blank>, hears that the
party has a <blank> of <blank> slaying, and then endeavours to get
it from them.  Remember that NPCs are PCs too!

>                                     Sue Brezden
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>                    Honk if you love Shiva!
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

honk honk

Gilles Dignard
University of Waterloo
Ontario, Canada

js2j@mhuxt.UUCP (sonntag) (04/09/85)

> There has been some discussion of ways to keep magic users from
> obtaining mass quantities of magic objects.  This is along the
> same line.
> 
> When do you know that PCs have too many goodies? What is your 
> favorite way of separating PCs from their funds--the nastier 
> and more devious the better, of course.  I am an inexperienced 
> DM and could use some pointers.  I don't think that I've given 
> them too much yet, but it may be time to taketh away.

    I don't have any real good ideas offhand for fleecing PC's, but 
I have been given a demonstration twice in the last year (by my DM)
in how *NOT* to fleece PCs.  Remember: PCs *sincerely* resent finding
out that a given scenario was made up by the DM for the sole purpose
of seperating them from their much-loved magic items.  
    An example (from a recent campaign): about 7 PCs, of levels 7-9 or
so, a well balanced party who have each acquired quite a bit of magic
during their travels.  They open the next door in this medium level
dungeon they've been clearing out.  KAZAM!  They are *ALL* breathed on
by a (get this) a sapphire dragon.  ALL normal materials are disintegrated,
players must save versus disintegration, *ALL* magic items must save versus
disintegration at -4.  We ended up losing about 2/3 of our magic, and
about 95% of our tempers.  MY GAUNTLETS OF OGRE STRENGTH WERE DISINTEGRATED!
Everyone lost many of their favorite things.  But it was obvious that
the DM had set this up just to fleece us, and we sorely resented it.
     It's much better if you can find a way to fleece your PCs while
letting them think that they had a decent chance to avoid losing their
stuff, but it was lost because of a mistake on *their* part. 
-- 
Jeff Sonntag
ihnp4!mhuxt!js2j
    "You're from Joisey?  I'm from Joisey!"
    "Which exit?"

faustus@ucbcad.UUCP (04/10/85)

It's always easy to do if you have some stupid players -- give them a
chance to attack something really powerful, and if they do have the
thing be "merciful" and only take all their posessions and leave them
hanging from their feet naked in a cave...

	Wayne

ee163acp@sdcc13.UUCP (DARIN JOHNSON) (04/10/85)

> There has been some discussion of ways to keep magic users from
> obtaining mass quantities of magic objects.  This is along the
> same line.
> 
> When do you know that PCs have too many goodies? What is your 
> favorite way of separating PCs from their funds--the nastier 
> and more devious the better, of course.  I am an inexperienced 
> DM and could use some pointers.  I don't think that I've given 
> them too much yet, but it may be time to taketh away.

Well, unless your players are very good friends of yours, don't be too
devious or nasty, it takes away from their fun too.  My best suggestion
is too arrange an encounter where they will be forced to use up most of
their charged items (also scrolls and potions).  They won't look to you
as stealing their magic, but rather think that they were glad they had
it in the first place.  For magic swords of drain life (+5 of course)
I suggest have a monster that can drain magic (a magical Xorn or
something) and have it drain a relatively expendable item.  The players
will probably try to depend upon other means than these valuable magic
items.  However, when their life is in the balance, they may end up 
sacrificing these (of their own free will) to save themselves.  I know 
most players should be used to having magic items disappear, but when it
is only there first and second favorite item, they get suspicious.

Another good method that lets the players in on the fun is to have a
master theif or assasin steal this item.  When the players follow the
(not too obvious) trail and capture this theif, he will have claimed to
have sold it to somebody.  This can lead into a major quest if the item
was very valuable (or sentimental :-) ).  

For things like a girdle of fire giant strength (my nemesis) there are a
few suggestions.  One, have the object lower in value after a
particularly vexing encounter,  such as putting a nick in a magic sword.
This is much more plausible when it was used against a magical creature.
My solution for the girdle is to have all fire giants know the key word
to turn them off (heretofore unknown, sages may pay handsomely for this
magic word).  If you are in a really nasty mood, have the giant
reach down, unbuckle it and walk off (if the players let him).  After a
few encounters like this, players tend to be more conservative in their
playing.

Sorry to post this if your players read, but I think other people have
the same problem.  Anyway, be creative, not devious.

  Darin Johnson

hollombe@ttidcc.UUCP (The Polymath) (04/10/85)

In article <2441@drutx.UUCP> slb@drutx.UUCP writes:
>When do you know that PCs have too many goodies? What is your 
>favorite way of separating PCs from their funds--the nastier 
>and more devious the better, of course.

>I am interested in neat scenerios and possible adventure kick-offs,
>as well as in general principles.

Here's what my DM did to my high-level fighter when he got  to  cocky  with
his funds:  He got mugged!  Scenario ran about like this:

Fighter visits his investment banker  (that's  another  story)  to  make  a
deposit  of gp 100,000 (equivalent in gems).  Along the way he's spotted by
a high-level thief with a treasure-detect item (DM says it was a  die-roll.
Would  he  lie?  Naaah.  (-:  ).  After leaving his banker he gets hit from
behind by two poisoned daggers that put him to sleep. (Note: at this  point
he  has  a  chance  to escape if he thinks fast enough to activate a recall
item before he goes under.  Our DM is nothing if not fair.  My  fighter  is
nothing if not stupid. (-: ).  He awakes stripped naked, chained to a stone
wall, wearing a helmet that blocks most telepathy, being interrogated by  a
master  telepath.  He's  ultimately  forced  to  make out a withdrawal note
signed over to the thief.  During a valiant escape attempt (actually ripped
the  chains  out  of the wall and was working on the door) he's knocked out
again and awakes naked in a field several hundred miles from home next to a
small pouch of food and a thank-you note (nice touch, that).

Needless to say, fighter is angry (and embarrassed).  It's not so much  the
money  as  all the magic armor and weaponry he's lost in the bargain.  When
he finally gets  home,  it  develops  there's  been  a  number  of  similar
robberies  of  high-level  types  around town.  He rounds up his friends to
help, and so begins the adventure of the attempt to capture the  thief  ...
but that, too, is another story.
-- 
-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-
The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe)
Citicorp TTI
3100 Ocean Park Blvd.
Santa Monica, CA  90405
(213) 450-9111, ext. 2483
{philabs,randvax,trwrb,vortex}!ttidca!ttidcc!hollombe

krs@amdahl.UUCP (Kris Stephens) (04/11/85)

> There has been some discussion of ways to keep magic users from
> obtaining mass quantities of magic objects.  This is along the
> same line.
> 
> When do you know that PCs have too many goodies? What is your 
> favorite way of separating PCs from their funds
(...)
> 
>                                      Sue Brezden

As a player (I've DMed exactly once), I always want this done within
the context of a consistent  world and not arbitrarily.  I've played
in magically sparse worlds  and Monty Hall worlds,  and tend to have
more fun in the latter.  Rationale:  In magically sparse worlds, one
tends to spend more time battling  Orcs and 1st-3rd Fighters than in
magically affluent worlds.  I think it's  more fun for the DM,  too,
to play almost the entire realm of monsters and dieties.  One way to
deal with  "too many  magic items"  is to  beef up the  opponents by
level and class.  Make sure the party  comes across times  when it's
better to negotiate  or split than fight.  Be prepare,  though,  for
very creative uses  of spells and items  (that's what  we're playing
for, isn't it?).

I agree that as long as the party is having HP problems and breaking
out into cold sweats,  there's not too much magic.  If your party is
walking through your best, it's time to weaken it.

Every  time a  party is hit  by a fireball, roll saves  for scrolls,
staves,  and any other  perishable items.  Do this CONSISTENTLY.  Do
the same for all  environmental attacks.  A low level character with
an outrageous magic item  should draw baddies  like a magnet to take
it away from him.  If he can defend it, he can keep it.

Worse comes  to worse,  and if the play  is impossible  due to magic
item wealth,  gate the party to  another plane for  an adventure and
have the gate-fee be  the destruction of each  character's strongest
magic item.  Throw them into a  dungeon  where items  get teleported
from them by some baddie or other whenever they stop for rest. What-
ever you do, do it consistently over the years.

Oh, standard player's philosophy  should be that scrolls and potions
are expendable (harking back to my environmental comment),  and will
be after you've torched the entire supply on 'em two or three times.
The best way to remove magic items is to have them used up!

>                                      
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>                     Honk if you love Shiva!
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Nupe: If you were honkin' for Freya, I'd get out my tuba!

Melchior, Bard

a.k.a.
-- 
Kris Stephens     (408-746-6047)                 {whatever}!amdahl!krs
     [The opinions expressed above are mine, solely, and do not    ]
     [necessarily reflect the opinions or policies of Amdahl Corp. ]

west@utcsri.UUCP (Thomas L. West) (04/13/85)

  By polymorphing them into sheep, of course.

---------------------------
   Tom L. West               Another test to flame
                             Another prof to blame
                             And nail that problem set to the wall.
                                  -The Poslfit Blues

ncg@ukc.UUCP (N.C.Gale) (04/19/85)

In article <2441@drutx.UUCP> slb@drutx.UUCP writes:
>When do you know that PCs have too many goodies? What is your 
>favorite way of separating PCs from their funds?...

One of the most rewarding tricks that I employ on my players is to
have an NPC (or group of NPCs) which is just slightly more powerful
than the party. This NPC is continually bumping into the party,
beating three shades out of them, but not actually killing them,
only swiping all their hard-earned treasure.

Gradually the players get to really *hate* the NPC, so when they
eventually do kill him/her, their little faces are lit up for
weeks. And, of course they get some of their treasure back.

Having lots of NPCs (good and bad) also gives the GM a chance to
roleplay in his own campaign.

-Nige Gale

slb@drutx.UUCP (Sue Brezden) (04/21/85)

I received many good mail items in response to my previous posting.
Thought I'd share them with the net.  

_____________________________________________________________________
Fleecing PC's eh?

Well, years ago, in one campaign, our DM made the mistake of allowing
us to get several nasty magic items.  For example, a Rod of Lordly Might !
and a Robe of Scantillating Colours (did i spell that write ?)
At any rate, things got a little out of hand.  Our character with
the RoLM didn't know how to use it, and kept screwing up.  The RoSC
became an awesome weapon, save or be stunned, so we'd turn it on,
and start moving through the dungeon, killing as we went.  This was
not good.  So the DM made a change.

The Rod of Lordly Might became the Rod of Lardly Might, able to shoot
oil (flaming) at creatures.  For extra charges, it could work as a flame
thrower.  But it removed all the problems of dealing with a RoLM.

The Robe became a Robe of Scantillating Curves, enabling the wearer to
appear as a Dryad.  Again, useful, but effective in reducing the
Magic of the Character.

I also seem to remember my Robe of Useful Items becoming a Robe of
Useless Items (a dead rat instead of a door !?!).

This method worked, with little dissention because we all knew that
we had too much magic, and the game was getting out of hand.  Perhaps
you can place them up against a powerful MU, who casts a spell, then
runs.  This spell would change the items.

Jim Sullivan

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sue,
	The problem in our campaign is not Magic-Users, but Thieves.  Perhaps
I shouldn't call them Thieves, byt Syndics.  Mages spend so much time in 
research and what not that they don't have time to raise money, and we have
kept enchanting prices very high.
	Anyway, the solution to the problem is a very sophisticated version
of the stagecoach robbery.  One or two top-flight (13th + levels) thieves
organize a group of advancible npc's to hit the party and help steal their 
items.  
	The attacking group will need to be well-balanced in terms of 
character classses, with plenty of healing magic around, and plenty of other
magic.  We have found that a group with surprise, and prepared spells can do
wonders!
	Remember though, that you don't want to fireball the items to pieces
and that the thieves aren't trying to kill the party-members, although this
can happen accidentally.
	As we play Greyhawk-style D&D the attackers would be HASTED, some would
be INVISIBLE (probably the top thieves, to let them get the backstab multiplier)
and SILENCE spells would be laid down on top of the parties spell-casters.
	Anyway, that's the brute forece method.  A more fun method perhaps,
is to persuade the players to give up their items.  We call this con
artistry.
 
~r .trailer

----------------------------------------------------------------------------


A DM I played for a few years ago pulled a nasty trick on us.  We
managed to get teleported from the surface into an underground cavern,
minus all possessions -- all we had left were our skivvies.  After
creating some makeshift weapons out of sticks, we managed to survive and
return to the surface, where we found all of our possesions except for
our magic items.  My fighter lost two very nice magic weapons, never to
be found again.  As a player, it wasn't much fun.

One possibility would be some sort of magic-destroying trap.  Any magic
items taken into this trap (perhaps a room or corridor) are affected in
some way:  they disintegrate, they lose some or all of their magic, they
reverse their magic (+2 sword becomes -2, etc.), of course without the
player's knowledge until the next time they try to use it.  Maybe each
PC has to make a saving throw for each magic item they are carrying. 
They should be given some chance of recognizing the trap as a
potentially nasty trap, rather than having them blindly stumble into it
and lose their magic, and innovative PCs should be able to figure out
some way to dispel it (but not too easy :-)

A brutal way would be to kill all the PCs, forcing everyone to roll up
new ones (I did this once, accidentally, while GMing RuneQuest). Since
everyone dies, nobody survives to recover the magic.  The next group of
PCs perhaps could go on a quest to recover the missing bodies and magic
items.

Or have the PCs captured somehow, and the captor demands one magic item
per head before they may be released.

			Alan Bland, druxp!mab
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well in my dungeon I have a very simple scheme: I give each player an
additional number known as thier "church rateing" (a number which is based
on their donations to the local church, and which exibits exponential growth
and diminishing returns).  This rateing effects how much they must pay for
church services (like having them do a resurection).  To get and maintain a
rateing of about 20 costs about 30% of all treasure found (at 20 they can
get resurections at a cost measured in 100's not 1000's or more).  They need
a rateing of about 70-80 to get everything free (though there is a limit due
to the limited staff at the church).  The church remembers all, and a
failure to give a suitable donation has a negative effect for some time. A
negative rateing (of course) increases the costs exponentially. This method
has kept my players poor for over 10 years (real time).

Another method I've seen is to only give experience for SPENDING money, not
finding it.  Usually a player has to specify a catagory (or several) for
which such spending will count (e.g. "wine, women, and song"). Any money
spent on other things don't gain experience, nor does money not spent at all.

Hope this helps.

					Ray

-------------------------------------------------------------------------


> When do you know that PCs have too many goodies?
When they are finding things easy.  When they are faced with a puzzle, they
should have to think about it;  the outcome of a combat should be sufficiantly
unpredictable that they worry or become tense.
"sufficiently" is a little tricky here.  The important things are:
1)	be fair.  Give the NPCs an even break too.  Let THEM go up levels...
2)	be consistent.  Nothing is worse than having to go back on your word
(so be vague now and again! Use phrases like "you see what appears to be a..."
"it looks like...", and "as far as you can tell..".)
3)	watch out for bored players.  Combat can help occasionally (once per
four or five sessions, perhaps, before someone says "look out, don't yawn or
we'll get an encounter!" :-) ), as can "you notice a..." or "you meet a.. <npc>
who only speaks ..., or who used to live at...or ...
4)	yes, USE NPCs.  There should always be a few floating around.  One or
two might have to go with them for some PLAUSIBLE reason, so that advice & the
odd bit of high power magic might be available.
5)	I prefer to start out PCs at 1st level. No magic items.  By the time
they get to 3rd level, maybe a magic (+1) sword/dagger or two.  But if a player
joins in late, a robe of useful items or something similar can leave the other
players wondering what soert of fellow is this new PC? (and they won't trust
him...)
>What is your favorite way of separating PCs from their funds--the nastier 
>and more devious the better, of course.
1)	don't give them much (easier said than done.. may be too late).. hand
out silver coins instead of gold...
2)	there's a TAX on entering the town/crossing the tollbridge
3)	that NPC is an 8th level thief...
4)	where are they carrying it?  It's quite heavy.  There are no free
banks, they charge.  Bury it & get it dug up (10%/month in a town?)...
5)	inflation - if they've been in 1 place for a while, prices rise..
6)	the Inland Revenue Inspector has a briefcase of devouring [:-):-)]
7)	[topical...] buying material components/magic sword/rings...
note that the items have a chance of failing.  no? Give them one! (and DON'T
tell the players what it is!!!!!)
Finally, NEVER fleece players.  The NPCs might, but YOU DON'T!!! if you do,
your players might well start looking for another DM....

All the best.. If there's anything else,  you only have to ask...
	- Russell


------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks to all who responded.  I would try to thank you personally--and
still may, but some large hairy monster has been scaring my mail back
to me from various paths.


-- 

                                     Sue Brezden
                                     
Real World: Room 1B17                Net World: ihnp4!drutx!slb
            AT&T Information Systems
            11900 North Pecos
            Westminster, Co. 80234
            (303)538-3829 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                    Honk if you love Shiva!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

geoff@ISM780.UUCP (04/26/85)

The question is: What does one do about parties with so much magic that
they can do a cakewalk in Hades?  Many good answers have been posted, but
if all else fails, try the "Fourth of July Special*".

This is a room, corridor, chest, or whatever that is inhabited by an alien
(off-plane) being who lives on magical energy.  Usually the trap is set
off (read: Creature is awakened) by the use of magic in the area (the size
of said area being the DM's option).  The effects are not subtle: EVERY
MAGIC ITEM RELEASES ITS POWER IMMEDIATELY.  (potions act as if ingested by
the bearer, scrolls read themselves, wands start shooting off charges,
weapons begin acting like dancing swords, etc.) If the DM is kind-hearted,
s/he may ignore the possibility of the "multiple potion" side effects
discussed in the DMG.  If the types of magic carried by the party are well
balanced WRT offense/defense, no one will be hurt too much, if not, the DM
could make adjustments as needed (perhaps the "creature" inhabiting the
trap will set off an anti-magic shell scroll which just happens to be
lying in the corner nearest the wimp characters).  The party now has a
problem, to wit:  "How the hell do we get out of here?", the description
of the events should prove amuzing enough to allay(sp?) any bad feelings
on the part of the worst-hit party members, and many heavy-duty magic
items will have to be left behind.  This will provide another adventure
for the day the party is truly powerful enough to try to get the stuff
back, by which time the amount of magic to "rescue" will be more in line
with the DM's idea of game balance.  The "creature" is not a violent soul,
just hungry.  The permanently enchanted magic items will keep flying
around and swinging at everything that moves as long as there is a
corporeal creature in the area of effect.  (Some sort of being native to
this plane is needed as a "focus" or "gate" for this power to manifest.)
To get rid of the creature a gate *might* work (if you can figure out
where to gate the creature to), but some or all of the magic items in the
area will go through the gate with the creature.  Mucho cash can be used
on Sage consultation to find out where the gate should go, if excess cash
is also a problem.

* The original idea comes from "The Dragon Tree Book of Tricks, Traps, and
Encounters" copyright Dragon Tree Press.  I recommend getting ahold of
everthing these people have published -- Great Stuff! (for DMs only!)