lucius@tardis.UUCP (Lucius Chiaraviglio) (05/06/85)
_
Why is it that one always hears of fallen paladins and angels, and
things once good turned to evil, but never the reverse; and why is it that
one always hears of things born evil that can never be converted to good or
made good by good upbringing? I see no reason why it should not be possible,
with sufficient work in a good upbringing, to bring up one of the monsters
listed as evil to be good. What awesome power is going to keep an orc brought
up in a paladin's family and treated non-discriminationally from being good,
by virtue of growing up that way? For that matter, why do we never hear of
anything like a few renegade demons who have left the ways of evil, just as
other powerful forces have fallen from good?
-- Lucius Chiaraviglio
{ seismo!tardis!lucius | lucius@tardis.ARPA | lucius@tardis.UUCP }ee163acp@sdcc13.UUCP (DARIN JOHNSON) (05/07/85)
In article <10050@tardis.UUCP>, lucius@tardis.UUCP (Lucius Chiaraviglio) writes: > _ > Why is it that one always hears of fallen paladins and angels, and > things once good turned to evil, but never the reverse; and why is it that > one always hears of things born evil that can never be converted to good or > made good by good upbringing? I see no reason why it should not be possible, > with sufficient work in a good upbringing, to bring up one of the monsters > listed as evil to be good. What awesome power is going to keep an orc brought > up in a paladin's family and treated non-discriminationally from being good, > by virtue of growing up that way? For that matter, why do we never hear of > anything like a few renegade demons who have left the ways of evil, just as > other powerful forces have fallen from good? > Ok, with a change-alignment magic item, this is a very reasonable assumption. However, this will not occur naturally. Good characters do not "turn evil". It may seem that way, but in my opinion, they just become neutral. I hate to imagine my pure-fighter-type suddenly killing women and children for the whim of it. He may take over slums and kick everyone out, but this is not your typical evil. I would call it greed or self-centered-ness. Likewise, I find it hard to imagine a demon (once an evil person) or orc (inherently evil) ever protesting South-Africa. However, red-dragons raised from the egg tend to throw my theory off, unless you envision them going 'wild' after their mentor leaves them alone a few months. Darin Johnson CD (chaotic dippy)
phil@osiris.UUCP (Philip Kos) (05/08/85)
OH MY GOD, THERE'S A BEHAVIORIST ON THE NET!! But seriously. I think this is a great idea, and I would love to use it in a campaign! This is the sort of think I read net.games.frp for. Phil Kos
steve@siemens.UUCP (05/08/85)
My biblical knowledge is pretty scant, but as I recall, there was an evil man named Saul who did some horrible things, but then he "saw the light" and became so good that Jesus made him an apostle. Saul was so ashamed of his previous dastardly ways that he changed his name to Paul. So there is a counterexample, an evil creature becoming good. I think perhaps the idea that evil creatures could not become good stems from good types having to justify killing evil types (that they did not have the resources to convert). Ideally, I think the good types should never kill evil ones, but rather they should attempt to convert them. Since this is definitely impractical, unpragmatic, and a sure way for good to lose to evil, the good types cannot live up to the ideal. -Steve Clark ...princeton!siemens!steve
gadz@reed.UUCP (Rory Bowman) (05/09/85)
In article <10050@tardis.UUCP> lucius@tardis.UUCP (Lucius Chiaraviglio) writes: >_ > Why is it that one always hears of fallen paladins and angels, and >things once good turned to evil, but never the reverse ... Actually this has happened in a campaign I used to run. There happened to be an assassin (5th level, I believe) who had the charisma, wisdom, strength and whatever else paladins need sufficient to be a paladin. ANYWAY, he used the disguise and false identity of a paladin to join a lawful good party [yes, I used alignments, something after the recent traffic on the net I plan on giving up] and in the process of adventuring with the party (with no good intent) managed to get himself killed. The cleric with the party called on his/her god, who by a lucky roll and my kind disposition replied sending an angel, and asked that the noble paladin, who had so well served and given his life in defense of others, etc. be ressurected. I don't recall whether the angel knew what was going on or not but it ended up granting the cleric's request; ressurecting the assassin as a lawful good (1st level) paladin. The player was doubtless amused by this and proceeded to play the paladin, managing even to achieve fifth level status as a paladin and thus became a dual class paladin/assassin. It was here that the paladin decided, in view of his new alignment, to use his assassin skills for good (abandoning only poison) and make a shot at the guildmaster (of assassins). He ended up getting killed in the attempt of course, but between his protection from evil and just general cleverness he made it to the guildmaster himself and even got some respectable blows in. Another few rounds and he might well have pulled it off. In an unrelated incident I have a Champions character who used to be a demon but now works as a superhero, for what its worth. The idea of evil changed to good is a fertile one, and I'd recommend it highly. The problem of how the character deals with/reconciles/atones for their past is just one aspect. Enjoy, Rory Bowman [real world address (effective may 13): 709 West 36th Street, Vancouver, WA 98660]
jagardner@watmath.UUCP (Jim Gardner) (05/09/85)
[...] There are many many instances of evil beings becoming good. As someone else pointed out, you can point to hundreds of cases of religious conversion; you can debate whether the convert began as totally evil or ended as totally good, but it is certainly an "alignment change" whatever the case. Second, literature is full of monsters who are traditionally bad but eventually work for good. Some examples: Vampires: Dracula books by Fred Saberhagen Dracula comics (Marvel) Count St.Germaine books by Chelsea Quinn Yarbro Dragons: Tea with the Black Dragon, R.A.MacEvoy A new line of comics whose name escapes me at the moment Wizard of Earthsea, Ursula K. LeGuin Ghosts: Thousands of "noble ghost" stories Werewolves: Werewolf by Night comic books (Marvel) Several Poul Anderson short stories The Compleat Werewolf, Anthony Boucher Demons: Ghost Rider comics (Marvel) The Demon comics (DC) Several John Collier stories The John Collier stories are the most blatant "conversions" that I can think of. In one, a demon is cured by psychoanalysis (in order to save an angel with whom he has a demonic bargain -- John Collier stories are usually tongue-in-cheek, and delightful to read. I recommend them to anyone.) I might also mention an interesting version of Doctor Faustus (the 16th century Christopher Marlowe version) recently performed at the University of Waterloo. In this interpretation, the demon Mephistopheles was played by a woman. Without straying from the text, they showed Mephistopheles slowly fall in love with Faustus through the course of the play; by the end, there was the air of a classic tragedy, the woman forced to consign her beloved to hell, although she no longer had any "evil" feelings in her. I have no idea how much of this applies to role-playing, but it might provide interesting background material. P.S. In a Champions campaign in Waterloo a few years ago, one of the characters was indeed a reformed demon, Hunted by the hosts of both heaven and hell. It was a neat idea, but it didn't seem to fit into the campaign very well... Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo
eliovson@aecom.UUCP (05/10/85)
> In article <10050@tardis.UUCP>, lucius@tardis.UUCP (Lucius Chiaraviglio) writes: > > _ > > Why is it that one always hears of fallen paladins and angels, and > > things once good turned to evil, but never the reverse; and why is it that > > one always hears of things born evil that can never be converted to good or > > made good by good upbringing? > > > Ok, with a change-alignment magic item, this is a very reasonable > assumption. > > Darin Johnson > CD (chaotic dippy) *** This blob of UltraChaos was once a Lion *** Well... Demons are spirits of evil controlled by greater spirits of evil. Angels are spirits of good give FREE WILL by the greatest spirit of good. In the series Damiano by R.A. Lafferty (or something like that) the angel got too involved with Mr. X and lost his status. He became human (augh!) a fate worse than death, mundanity. Turning regarding specials is quite clear I think: they leave. They are just too inherently strong to dissipate or do something good for you. It requires powerful binding forces. Good is more picky than bad. It's easy to be bad. Regarding upbringing and magic items. I would have to say that a helm of opposite alignment would destroy a solar (MM II) or similar angel and demons as well. A force that exists primarily for the spirit of good/evil would not be if it's reason for existence is changed. As far as creatures? Creatures have souls and Free Will. Although there are certainly character traits in some cases like a well treated half-orc there might be a chance of his/her becoming a "relatively better than average" half-orc. My personal feeling about dragons is that they are big puppy dogs! The whole idea of subdual is incorporated into the spirit of its upbringing. Moshe Eliovson philabs!aecom!eliovson