[net.games.frp] response to 2 queries on paladins

mpc@tropix.UUCP (Michael P. Capron ) (05/01/85)

> Ok, we all know that Paladins are a pain in the *, but what I'd like to 
> know is how do people play their Palidins? (Or DO they play Paladins?)

Actually, I know no such thing.  It is very nice to have a party member everyone
can trust.  Also when a paladin is dealing with monsters and NPC's, They believe
that a paladin will do anything he gives his word on. 

There was a question about a chaotic-neutral thief living in a Cavalier-
Paladin's Castle:
> 	When asked about this arrangement, he (the player) stated
> 	that because the Cav/Pal's god was Tir, this arrangement
> 	was O.K.

AD&D's view: From the Player's handbook, page 24:
"They (paladins) will associate only with characters and creatures of good
alignment; paladins can join a company of adventurers which contains non-evil
neutrals only on a single-expedition basis, and only if some end which will
further the cause of lawful good is purposed."

My view:
Paladin's will not discriminate on the basis of a creatures alignment.  They
may associate with anyone who acts in what the paladin deems a 
reasonable manner.  If the person is not good aligned, the paladin will 
continually point out the benefits of lawful goodness through word and deed.
If the person is evil, the same must be done, but they must be carefully 
watched.  There is some benefit to having evil where you can keep an eye on it.
Of course it would be would not be smart to be in a situation where the be 
paladin had to totally depend upon questionable persons.

In any event, paladins should be a pain to anyone who commits evil or unlawful
acts in their presence.  Even members of a paladins party are not above the
law and should be subdued and turned over to the lawful authorities if they 
commit crimes.  This does not mean that the paladin is required to go out of
his way to find out what the party thief does around town.  He might be more
be interested in what preists of evil deities are up to.  This kind of 
favoritism is perfectly reasonable and does not cause party strife. 

> Anyway, me and my friend sicked an anti paladin on the cav/pal,
> and a fighter/mage on the thief. We have been taunting him for
> about two weeks, and he has accepted a challenge from our group.

If the characters of you and your friend are good aligned, then your alignment
status is in serious jeopardy.

> 	How can a cav/pal lose his paladinhood?
> 		If he killed someone that was innocent,
> 		in an un-provoked attack??

Definitely!  A more general statement is that he will lose paladin status
if he does anything which seriously violates his alignment.  Some things are
outright evil.  Killing innocents and rape are good examples.  Paladins should 
not be penalized for actions taken while they were possessed or charmed!  An 
excellent reference on paladins is "It's not easy being good" by Roger Moore in 
Dragon 51, reprinted in "Best of the Dragon Volume III".

Note that the implied threat of torture is not evil, and has been used by one 
of my paladins on occasion.  It's amazing what creatures accustomed to evil 
masters will do when someone says "Talk or else."  Of course if they are aware 
they are dealing with a paladin, this may not work.

> 	Are magic boots considered part of the armor,
> 	or are they misc. magic items???

The boots which come with magic armor are considered to be a part of it.  
Magic boots which are obtained seperatly and were not made as part of the armor
are considered separate misc. magic items.

> 	What exactly (magic item wise) can a cav/pal
> 	own (either in his keep, or on himself).????
> 	   How many????

A paladin may have legal title to:
1 suit of armor {I would allow Bracers of Defense to be substituted here}
1 shield
4 weapons
4 others

Disposable magic items such as arrows, potions, javlins of lightning and feather
tokens don't count.  A paladin may occasionally accept the loan of a magic item
whom someone else has legal title to, but obvious attempts of using this to get 
around magic item limitations should be dealt with harshly by DM's.

				Mike Capron
				{ihnp4,allegra,masscomp,ritcv}!tropix!mpc
				GCA/Tropel Division
				60 O'Connor Rd.
				Fairport, NY 14450 
				(716) 377-3200 x221

chuqui@nsc.UUCP (Chuq Von Rospach) (05/09/85)

In article <5105@ukc.UUCP> ncg@ukc.UUCP (Nige Gale) writes:
>Should a paladin judge people by their alignments, or their actions?
>When our party, in which I am a Paladin, first produced a Charter
>dictating how party-members should behave, shortly afterwards a new
>player joined us. A chaotic evil dwarven fighter, Gladys.
>Gladys stayed with the party for some time, and never did anything
>even mildly naughty (the Charter was strictly enforced by the most
>powerful faction, by far, in the party). Our characters were never
>given cause to suspect, so we never did Know Alignment.
>But even if my paladin had known she was evil, on what grounds can
>he expell her from the party? .

In this case there doesn't seem to be cause to expell the character, but
unless there is an overriding reason for this unseemly behavior, I think
the DM ought to look very carefully whether or not the evil fighter ought
to be penalized for an alignment shift... This is one case where the evil
characters have a LOT more leeway than good characters, because they can
get away with being good if it is for evil purposes (think about that one,
folks...) whereas good people who do ANYTHING evil for any purpose can get
caught for alignment shifts.... 

>>commit crimes.  This does not mean that the paladin is required to go out of
>>his way to find out what the party thief does around town....
>
>Hmm. A paladin's conscience might prick if he suspected that a party-member
>was fleecing innocent merchants. Perhaps he might ask the thief:
>"Have you been out fleecing innocent merchants?"
>"Certainly not" says the thief.

It is possible to propose that there isn't such a thing as an innocent
merchant.... Depending upon the universe, it might even be true...

-- 
:From the offices of Pagans for Cthulhu:          Chuq Von Rospach
{cbosgd,fortune,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!chuqui   nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA

Who shall forgive the unrepentant?

ncg@ukc.UUCP (N.C.Gale) (05/11/85)

In article <241@tropix.UUCP> mpc@tropix.UUCP (Michael P. Capron ) writes:
>My view:
>Paladin's will not discriminate on the basis of a creatures alignment.  They
>may associate with anyone who acts in what the paladin deems a 
>  ...
>In any event, paladins should be a pain to anyone who commits evil or unlawful
>acts in their presence. 

Should a paladin judge people by their alignments, or their actions?
When our party, in which I am a Paladin, first produced a Charter
dictating how party-members should behave, shortly afterwards a new
player joined us. A chaotic evil dwarven fighter, Gladys.
Gladys stayed with the party for some time, and never did anything
even mildly naughty (the Charter was strictly enforced by the most
powerful faction, by far, in the party). Our characters were never
given cause to suspect, so we never did Know Alignment.
But even if my paladin had known she was evil, on what grounds can
he expell her from the party? .
(this isn't directed specifically at you, Michael, but at Joe Public)

> ...
>commit crimes.  This does not mean that the paladin is required to go out of
>his way to find out what the party thief does around town....


Hmm. A paladin's conscience might prick if he suspected that a party-member
was fleecing innocent merchants. Perhaps he might ask the thief:
"Have you been out fleecing innocent merchants?"
"Certainly not" says the thief.

-Nige Gale