israel@qantel.UUCP ( Renegade@ex2564) (04/30/85)
< This line is NEW and IMPROVED - get yours today! > How to Stop the Unstoppable PC ------------------------------------ There are three forms of superpowerful PC's - those with godlike stats, those with astronomical levels, and those with oodles of magic items. Then there are the wise guys that have all three... Of the three, powerful magic items are the trickiess to deal with. But there are ways of cancelling things out, to make PC's vunerable. For example, there are counter magic devices, such as rods of cancellation, wands of negation, the magical resistance properties of Holy Avengers, etc. Be sure you spread a liberal amount of these among enemy parties. If you really want to worry them, you could use creatures which destroy or are immune to magic themselves, such as rust monsters, disenchanters, creatures with high magic resistance (demons, gods, etc), or certain immunites (such as Will O' the Wisps - if you really want to drive a party crazy, try attacking them with Will O' the wisps when they're out of magic missiles). Of course, the best type of monster isn't a monster at all - it's a well conceived trap. The better traps will not merely wound or kill, but also force them to use up magic to escape it. (I'm not above throwing in an Antimagic field along a threshold leading to a room full of nasties.) High stats - they help PC's hit better, allow them access to more spells, make opening locks a guarantee, and so on. There are two approaches to this, either finding ways of lowering stats, or using them against the characters. If you want to lower stats, there are again numerous techniques available - cursed books, artifacts, decks of many things all have their applications here (remember, it is extremely difficult to determine the nature of such items until it's too late - if the PC's are finding things out too easily, you're being too generous!). And, of course, there are the monsters - Lamias for the clerics, thought eaters for the mages, etc. If you take the second approach, you must be devious beyond the party's wildest imagination, so that their own abilities work against them. Example - the party comes to a tall iron door, barred shut on the other side. An anti- magic field prevents the use of certain spells while trying to open it, and without a lock, there's little the thief can do. The fighter with 22 strength walks up and says "No problem, I'll just bust it open with my 22 strength!" With that, he takes a couple of steps back, gets a running start, bashes the door in, and falls through the 200 foot pit immediately on the other side. "But wait!", he cries, "my ring of featherfall will save me!". Well, if he were landing on solid ground, it might, but not when you're landing on a sphere of annihalation...(you get the idea). Another example - the party enters a large hall, at the other end of it are ten ancient red dragons, all chaotic hungry. The mage with the 25 inteillgence says "By virtue of my magnificent brain, I am immune to illusion/phantasm spells - be these dragons real?" The dm tells him yes, so the mage throws a 20 die lightning bolt at them. This bounces off the transparent glassteel wall in front of the dragons, right back at the party, probably killing the mage, while the dragons have a good laugh. As for high levels, these are really variations on the high stats problem. There are two very simple solutions to this situation, beyond the ones described above. The first is simply tell the PC, "Well, you're diety suddenly appears before you and says unto you `Way to go, guy! Welcome to the pantheon...'". As for the other solution - well, you've never heard vampires? (And let's not forget that they retain the class and abilities they had in life - how about having your party attacked in the middle of the night by an entire assassin's guild worth of vampires?) So let's get out there, let's to it to them before they do it to your worlds... -- Renegade of Berkeley MDS Qantel ucbvax!dual!qantel!israel Disclaimer: "Who, me? I wasn't even there!"
jims@hcrvax.UUCP (Jim Sullivan) (05/03/85)
> How to Stop the Unstoppable PC How do PC's get unstoppable. I've always been under the inpression that they get more powerful, but not unstoppable. As for party baking, where no matter what they do, they lose, is totally unfair. I don't mind dieing, but I feel that I deserve a chance of living. > Of course, the best type of monster isn't a monster at all - it's a well > conceived trap. The better traps will not merely wound or kill, but also > force them to use up magic to escape it. (I'm not above throwing in an > Antimagic field along a threshold leading to a room full of nasties.) Yes, traps are good, but they shouldn't kill you outright. Don't forget that magic resistance is the great equalizer. Monsters get it, PC's don't. This can really hurt a party, when the chance of a spell working is only 25 %. Why make it tougher ? > High stats - they help PC's hit better, allow them access to more spells, > make opening locks a guarantee, and so on. There are two approaches to this, > either finding ways of lowering stats, or using them against the characters. > If you want to lower stats, there are again numerous techniques available - > cursed books, artifacts, decks of many things all have their applications > here (remember, it is extremely difficult to determine the nature of such > items until it's too late - if the PC's are finding things out too easily, > you're being too generous!). And, of course, there are the monsters - > Lamias for the clerics, thought eaters for the mages, etc. I must say, I get really pissed off when my DM, while disregarding my stats, causes me to die. This has happened several times, and always results in an argument. But the thrust is, PC's work to get their high stats, if they get too high, raise the level of the dungeon, don't lower the PC ! > If you take the second approach, you must be devious beyond the party's > wildest imagination, so that their own abilities work against them. Example - > the party comes to a tall iron door, barred shut on the other side. An anti- > magic field prevents the use of certain spells while trying to open it, and > without a lock, there's little the thief can do. The fighter with 22 strength > walks up and says "No problem, I'll just bust it open with my 22 strength!" > With that, he takes a couple of steps back, gets a running start, bashes > the door in, and falls through the 200 foot pit immediately on the other side. > "But wait!", he cries, "my ring of featherfall will save me!". Well, if > he were landing on solid ground, it might, but not when you're landing > on a sphere of annihalation...(you get the idea). What change did he have ?? Why didn't you just say, "OK, you're dead." Traps are great, but provide the chance of survival. One DM once gave the entire party pea-shooters, then, later on in the dungeon, dumped the entire party into a pool of water with oil floating on top. Of course the oil lights, and the party starts taking damage. We all forgot about our pea-shooters, which we could have used top breath with, and we took damage for it. BUT, we had a chance, it wasn't just a party bake. > Another example - the party enters a large hall, at the other end of it > are ten ancient red dragons, all chaotic hungry. The mage with the 25 > inteillgence says "By virtue of my magnificent brain, I am immune to > illusion/phantasm spells - be these dragons real?" The dm tells him > yes, so the mage throws a 20 die lightning bolt at them. This bounces > off the transparent glassteel wall in front of the dragons, right back at the > party, probably killing the mage, while the dragons have a good laugh. See above > The first is simply tell the PC, "Well, you're diety > suddenly appears before you and says unto you `Way to go, guy! Welcome to > the pantheon...'". As for the other solution - well, you've never heard > vampires? (And let's not forget that they retain the class and abilities > they had in life - how about having your party attacked in the middle of > the night by an entire assassin's guild worth of vampires?) See above > So let's get out there, let's to it to them before they do it to your > worlds... > -- > Renegade of Berkeley > MDS Qantel > ucbvax!dual!qantel!israel Wrong, Wrong, Wrong. Let's create difficult challanges, where, if the PC's don't think, don't use their magic and strengths properly, they could die. DM's who want to "do it to them", stop doing it when no one will play with them. Jim Sullivan
ncg@ukc.UUCP (N.C.Gale) (05/15/85)
Jim Sullivan's is an understandable point of view. But GMs need to give their players Magic Items. The more powerful the item, quite often, the more pleasure the players will get from possessing it. But every so often, the GM is bound to overdo it. If, like me, (s)he has put a considerable amount of work into forward planning, and planting ever-higher obstacles for the players, it is most aggravating to realise that they can now quite easily attain the Goal of the campaign several months ahead of schedule. So it either means a) redesign all the intervening adventures for a more powerful party, or b) fleece the PCs down to a reasonable level. I know which course I would take. So this discussion about the most subtle methods of taking PCs down a couple of pegs is of some use, I think. But I think that killing a PC because (s)he is too powerful is a bit drastic. Certainly, my players have a very low PC turnover rate, and so have time to get very attached to their characters. When one dies, it takes some considerable time for the player to have the same enthusiasm for the game, especially if (s)he has been relegated from most powerful to least powerful member of the party. I think no one is ever too pleased at losing a well-loved character, powerful or not. -Nige Gale