michael3@garfield.UUCP (Mike Rendell) (06/19/85)
I've recently become interested in Superhero RPGs,and as such have two questions. 1) Do the various editions of Champions bear the same relationship to each other as Basic D&D to Expert D&D (re:supplemental volumes),or as AD&D to D&D (re:complete revisions)? 2) A few days ago I posted a quick comparison of 20s RPGs. A superhero version would be quite interesting. PSP "Man may have evolved from the trees,but his eyes still swing from limb to limb" -Simon Templar
mike@genat.UUCP (Mike Stephenson) (06/20/85)
> I've recently become interested in Superhero RPGs,and as such have two > questions. > > 1) Do the various editions of Champions bear the same relationship to > each other as Basic D&D to Expert D&D (re:supplemental volumes),or as > AD&D to D&D (re:complete revisions)? > Champions II and III are definately supplemental material to the first volume. You can play a complete game with only Champions I, but having the other two books gives you a great deal of information with which to "flesh out" your heros, villians, and the universe in general. > > 2) A few days ago I posted a quick comparison of 20s RPGs. A superhero > version would be quite interesting. > There is a new Champions book out, called "Golden Age of Champions" or something similar. This game deals with superheros in the so called "Golden Age"; specifically, WWII. One of the nice things about this version of the game is that the superheros are kept "powered down" to more respectable levels (eg. about 250 ap instead of ~500 ap in regular Champions games). I know that this is not quite what you are looking for, but it is quite a good game all the same. Mike Stephenson
ccrrick@ucdavis.UUCP (Rick Heli) (06/25/85)
> I've recently become interested in Superhero RPGs,and as such have two > questions. > > 1) Do the various editions of Champions bear the same relationship to > each other as Basic D&D to Expert D&D (re:supplemental volumes),or as > AD&D to D&D (re:complete revisions)? > Well, there are two matters here. There are volumes and there are editions. Champions details the game system and most of the powers. Champions II revises a few powers and adds new ones. It also adds some "environmental" stuff. Champions III is like Champions II, except there is even more added, including some more exotic powers, e. g. shapeshifting-type stuff and details on Danger Rooms a la the X-men. There also have been at least 3 editions of the original Champions book. Each time a few small rules are revised and organizational changes are made. The third edition, however, saw more substantial revision. The folks at Hero are quite proud of the latest version (at least when I talked to them) because they feel that they have gone a long way in making the game accessible to the initiate. I haven't seen it in detail, though, and couldn't comment. Presumably the modifications set out in II and III are incorporated in this edition. -- --rick heli (... ucbvax!ucdavis!groucho!ccrrick)
lasko@regina.DEC (Video Terminals Architecture) (06/28/85)
Re: ucbvax!ucdavis!ccrick's comments on the editions and volumes of
Champions....
The 3rd (latest) edition of Champions is a rewritten version of
Champions I, but doesn't include the new rules that were presented
in the Champions II and III
volumes. The people at Hero have rewritten
practically everything in the book to make the rules much clearer,
and typeset the entire volume to make it read easier. Depending on the
version you have (more on this in a minute), there is either a separate
book or the last dozen or so pages consist of a much expanded version of
the original "VIPER'S NEST" adventure. The character sheets have also been
redone, and are very nearly perfect. (I use the extra rules from Golden
Age of Champions for Recognition and Reputation, but there isn't any
convinient space to put the totals near the characteristics.) The
modifications to the basic Champions rules made in several places (Champions
II: Interdimensional Teleport comes to mind, Golden Age, and Adventurers Club)
have been included, but none of the optional rules from Champions III have
been. And none of the "campaigning" stuff (vehicles, danger rooms, that
hideous random character generator) is included--you would still need all
three volumes of Champions for *all* of the rules. As I mentioned above,
there are two versions of the 3rd edition: boxed and book. Get a boxed
version while you can: Hero is losing money on the boxes, and has bound
the two books together into a single, perfect-binding book. The boxed
edition also gets you the generic hex-map and dice. You may still be
able to find boxes at out-of-the-way stores...
Getting the 3rd edition of Champions I is a good investment, in my opinion.
It's neat, well organized, and contains the up-to-date rules. I'm waiting
for next spring for the reprinted Champions II: the second edition II
had completely rewritten Vehicle rules, but since I didn't use them that
much, I didn't buy it.
"Pay your Taxes and Beat the Axis!"
tim lasko (a.k.a. Vanguard)
{ihnp4!siesmo!decvax!decwrl! et. al.}!dec-rhea!dec-regina!lasko
DEC, Maynard, MA.ccrrick@ucdavis.UUCP (Rick Heli) (06/29/85)
> Re: ucbvax!ucdavis!ccrick's comments on the editions and volumes of > Champions.... > > The 3rd (latest) edition of Champions is a rewritten version of > Champions I, but doesn't include the new rules that were presented > in the Champions II and III volumes. What I meant to say was that I hoped that the emendations, modifications, and additions to powers/skills originally presented in Champions (I) were now included in the revised edition. -- --rick heli (... ucbvax!ucdavis!groucho!ccrrick)
cc1@ucla-cs.UUCP (06/30/85)
In article <2038@genat.UUCP> mike@genat.UUCP (Mike Stephenson) writes: >There is a new Champions book out, called "Golden Age of Champions" or >something similar. This game deals with superheros in the so called >"Golden Age"; specifically, WWII. One of the nice things about this >version of the game is that the superheros are kept "powered down" to >more respectable levels (eg. about 250 ap instead of ~500 ap in regular >Champions games). I know that this is not quite what you are looking for, >but it is quite a good game all the same. Wait a sec. Like the book says, anything above 275 points makes your character WEAKER, not stronger. This assumes that the GM is playing the disadvantager correctly. How often do those hunteds of yours try something like kidnapping your dependants? Do they ever play againts your psychological (sic) limitations? Is your GM allowing anything that can be described by the game rules, or is he requiring a sensible origin, and powers that make sense? (I have a friend that can make anything at +3. Usually we don't let him.) Michael Gersten
mike@genat.UUCP (Mike Stephenson) (07/04/85)
> > .... One of the nice things about this > >version of the game is that the superheros are kept "powered down" to > >more respectable levels (eg. about 250 ap instead of ~500 ap in regular > >Champions games). I know that this is not quite what you are looking for, > >but it is quite a good game all the same. > > Wait a sec. Like the book says, anything above 275 points makes your character > WEAKER, not stronger. This assumes that the GM is playing the disadvantager > correctly. > > How often do those hunteds of yours try something like .... > > Michael Gersten *** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR FAVORITE FLAVOR OF ENERGY BLAST *** Please note, I said 250 ap and ~500 ap in my previous article. That is, Active Points, not real points. A character can be built up to the 500 - 600 active point range if you are willing to spend about 250 - 300 real points, and put about 3 hours working on the character, making all of the powers properly balanced, and interrelating some of them. Now, these characters *do* have a fair number of limitations, but I personally tend to shy away from hunteds and berserks, leaning instead towards physical and psycological limitations, susceptabilities and the like. My GM's (there are two of them working on a 2-3 month rotation in the same general campaign) *do* play the disadvantages. As a general rule, the GM's will usually review any new characters before they enter play in order to integrate them into the universe. The GM's tend, for game continuity to have several characters have a common hunted if at all possible. This can be (and usually is) used as a hook for another adventure, and keeps bookeeping down. What the book says about practical limits to character power levels and what happens in "real life" are two entirely separately situations. Champions is an incredibly flexible system, and once you understand the in's and out's of purchasing a character, you can do wonders with a few hundred points. I have several general rules for character generation, which, when applied judiciously, tend to result in a powerful but well balanced character: - First and foremost, come up with a realistic (within terms of the universe) concept. *THIS IS VITAL FOR A REALLY GOOD CHARACTER* - Next, translate the conceptual powers into Champions powers with the help of the table in the back of Champions II. - I almost always use a multi-power for as many of the powers that will fit together. I have never been able to justify the use of an Elemental (and would appreciate if someone out there could show me a good example of using one). - Next, having basically roughed out the powers, set up the disadvantages, primarily to suit the conception, but sometimes in order to pay off the extra "goodies" purchased. - Finally, do a balancing of powers and disadvantages, (usually I drop some of the powers to remove disadvantages I feel will screw me up in the course of the game). By the way, there is nothing stopping anyone from applying the same theories to GAoC, but the designer of the game, Chris Cloutier, wanted to avoid the high powered characters in order to preserve the flavour of a 1940's universe. I had the opportunity to play test the game with Chris at an Ann Arbour SF Convention in January of this year, and he spent a fair amount of time explaining the rational of his universe (specifically the one used as an example in the book). Mike Stephenson
jagardner@watmath.UUCP (Jim Gardner) (07/04/85)
In article <6203@ucla-cs.ARPA> vss7101%uclavm@wiscvm@ucla-cs.UUCP (Michael Gersten) writes: >In article <2038@genat.UUCP> mike@genat.UUCP (Mike Stephenson) writes: >>There is a new Champions book out, called "Golden Age of Champions" or >>something similar. This game deals with superheros in the so called >>"Golden Age"; specifically, WWII. One of the nice things about this >>version of the game is that the superheros are kept "powered down" to >>more respectable levels (eg. about 250 ap instead of ~500 ap in regular >>Champions games). I know that this is not quite what you are looking for, >>but it is quite a good game all the same. >Wait a sec. Like the book says, anything above 275 points makes your character >WEAKER, not stronger. This assumes that the GM is playing the disadvantager >correctly. Creating a hero at 275 points means you're going to get mulched by disadvantages, but building a character to a high number of points is a different thing. I have a 300 point character who started at 225 (we used the old Champions recommendations) and he's doing quite nicely, thank you. He's bought off a bunch of his disadvantages, upgraded his powers to the point where he can hold his own in a fair fight, and now he's picking up a few skills (it's tough being stealthy in a suit of metal armour, but he's trying...) On a different note, Hero Games have finally brought out their fantasy RPG, Fantasy Hero (introduced at Origins last week). It comes as a book of rules; no dice or other playing aids. The company seems to have decided that this is the way they'll be going from here on out. I have not had a chance to go through the book carefully, but a quick skim says it looks very good. Not only do they have the usual explanation of the hero system, they have added a lot of examples, new (medieval) combat maneuvers, stats for animals and selected monsters, campaign suggestions and all that kind of stuff...even conversion rules for Runequest-Fantasy Hero! I would strongly recommend this for anyone who is curious about the Hero Games system, as well as for those who play other Hero games. (Haven't you Champions people always wanted good stats for lions and other nasties superheroes might fight.) Other stuff retrieved from Origins by friends who went there: an RPG based on Jack Chalker's "Well of Souls" series; "Lands of Mystery", a guide to "Lost Valley" adventures for Justice Inc., Call of Cthulhu, and other pulpish games; and other good stuff. Of course, I'm waiting desperately to hear news from others who went to Origins... Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo
jagardner@watmath.UUCP (Jim Gardner) (07/05/85)
In article <2041@genat.UUCP> mike@genat.UUCP (Mike Stephenson) writes: > - I almost always use a multi-power for as many of the powers > that will fit together. I have never been able to justify the > use of an Elemental (and would appreciate if someone out there > could show me a good example of using one). The classic place where an Elemental Control is more useful than a multi-power is tied in with Mind Scan. If you want to use Mind Scan to keep a bead on your target while you Ego Attack/Mental Illusion/etc., you can't have both your Mind Scan and attack sucking up the resources of a multi-power. In such a case, it is sometimes more practical to put your Mind Scan and mental attack into an elemental control so you can use both simultaneously. The other argument for Elemental Control comes when you have a set of similar powers that you will always want to use together. As a simple example, take an Ice-shooter character. This character might very well want an ice force field for defense, an ice EB for offense, and flight (via ice ramps, a la Iceman) for movement. In combat, the character will almost always want to have the FF on and will often be flying around as well, not to mention shooting EBs whenever appropriate. It is therefore more practical to put these into an Elemental Control rather than a multi-power. Multi-powers let you have a lot of stuff cheap, but only if you restrict yourself to one or two powers at a time. Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo