west@uts.am.reading.UUCP (Jeremy West) (07/08/85)
Keywords: Xpath: reading uts.am gateway.cs I have long been amused by the rather foolish sword ego rules in AD&D, but have recently been unfortunate enuff to play under a DM who takes them seriously. Here is my plea for help! Background: A human split class 6/6 FTR/CL picks up a book (foolish) and promptly looses all but 2 xp, 1 in each class. DM rules he is a first level FT with first level CL abilities. He seeks devine advice, changes his name to Bookworm and sets forth, content in the knowledge that he must advance again as a FTR until he reaches sixth level whereupon he MUST revert to being a CL. The problem: (and with a different DM...) At fourth level FTR, he (and the party) are slept and kidnapped for sacrifice; escape and eventually clear out the baddies - with the help of a rusty old sword found in the tunnels by the dungeon cells. You guessed it, the sword is intelligent and very egotistical. Okay, no problem... until I get to the end of the adventure and try to recover my old magic. No way! Sh*t! Never mind, win some loose some. But then I am told the swords ego is 19. I CAN'T overcome this bugger until I reach 21st level. And I CAN'T reach 21st level cos I have to revert to being a cleric at sixth! This is where the fun starts. The question: How do you play ego weapons? The character does not wish to keep the sword - apart from loss of magic (nasty but part of the game) Bookworm is a chaotic who is now imprisoned by the will of another - surely the ultimate horror for a chaotic? But, if Bookworm is not under the absolute sway of the sword all the time, it can hardly 'force into combat' or any other manifestation of ego. So he has to be either possesed by the sword, or else he simply physically cannot let go of it! If possession, things are tough for my character, since when he reaches sixth level all advancement will cease; but, being controlled by the sword he daren't change class, seek help or anything. Not as much fun to play as the character I used to play - I'd rather play a character I have developed than one imposed from above. I acknowledge that I could develop him into a character worth playing, but when he can't use or take any magic, can't use or take any xp and is limited in his spending opportunities (since he is not in a campaign)....... sigh. If the latter (unable to let go, in constant fear of ego shock if he disobays the sword, but able at least to rationalise his dilemma), I can at least try to manouver so as to dispose of the darn thing. Obviously I would like to believe that ego items can only influence their "owners" if actually on the person of the victim. Thus, the means of control is the threat of 19 points of damage per segment! This implies that even telepathic items cannot read minds (but use mental "radio waves" to contact others) and so the item cannot know (but could guess - it is intelligent after all) what the user is thinking. But at least the user can attempt to overthrow the yoke of oppression, just as a 'humble +1 sword can be a vocal martyr' (sword ego rules), so the unfortunate character can try to oppose the item, making insubordinate comments, attempting to walk into anti-magic shells etc. And if the item (in the persona of the DM) fails to see the outcome of the character's action... then the character is free, or the comment will pass un-noticed and the player has some feeling that the game is still fun after all! So, what does everyone think? How to play ego items so they are still FUN, even if they offer the odd disadvantage from time to time. Personally, I would ignore ego, but give the item some habits / side-effects / disadvantages which may be outweighed by the benefits / advantages of possessing the item. The sword in question is +3 and has a 'heal' 1/day. Very useful, but the potential loss of freedom of action is too high a price for this particular character. If, on the other hand, the sword constrained me to never accepting healing from others - or some similar penalty in keeping with the sword's history and purpose, the trade would be more likely to be acceptable to the character and hence to the player. I don't mind taking knocks, but the game must still be fun. A second question arising from this matter is this: Would a Chaotic/Neutral sword (most seem to presume items are absolutely faithful to their alignment) 'possess' another C/N when freedom from abitrary restriction seems to be a fundamental axiom of the chaotic nature? Anyway, this is already far too long, but I hope it sparks some discussion... Jerry ----- west%rdg.cs@ucl-cs.ARPA | Dept of Computer Science, west@cs.reading.UUCP | University of Reading, west@uk.ac.reading.cs (JANET) | READING, RG6 2AX, U.K.
mte@busch.UUCP (Moshe Eliovson) (07/11/85)
> I have long been amused by the rather foolish sword ego rules in > AD&D, but have recently been unfortunate enuff to play under a DM > who takes them seriously. Here is my plea for help! While I can certainly understand your frustration, giving swords attributes goes right along with their magical abilities. You can't say well I want the good stuff alone, and if the sword's alignment is the same as your own you're in great shape if the DM is creative enough to play it like the friend it is. This can become quite an asset if you're both of the same alignment, since the sword will: a) if it's ego is weaker - it will worship you b) if it's stronger it will of course berate you for your weakness but might possibly carry you to higher levels (if it's magical properties are strong enough). > The question: > > Obviously I would like to believe that ego items can only influence > their "owners" if actually on the person of the victim. Thus, the > means of control is the threat of 19 points of damage per segment! Is this correct? The shock is supposed to be the DIFFERENCE between both your egos. > This implies that even telepathic items cannot read minds (but use > mental "radio waves" to contact others) and so the item cannot know > (but could guess - it is intelligent after all) what the user is thinking. The sword is not psychic unless one of it's abilities is empathy, esp, or something... but it can certainly be aware of your actions. > But at least the user can attempt to overthrow the yoke of oppression, > just as a 'humble +1 sword can be a vocal martyr' (sword ego rules), > so the unfortunate character can try to oppose the item, making > insubordinate comments, attempting to walk into anti-magic shells etc. That might work but I wouldn't give your DM that option. That makes anti-magic shell very, very powerful. > > Would a Chaotic/Neutral sword (most seem to presume items are absolutely > faithful to their alignment) 'possess' another C/N when freedom from > abitrary restriction seems to be a fundamental axiom of the chaotic > nature? > A sword of the same alignment and goals should start off as a friend, unless the sword has a history (like being left rusting in a dungeon for years) and has its own ideas. The definition of chaotic allows the sword to possess you although I'm not sure I'd rule that way. From your character's history it sounds like your DM has been royally screwing you. I have two sample solutions. 1) Find a higher level chaotic and let the sword choose between you. If the sword doesn't like this one try another... 2) You are absolutely right. Tell the DM that your character being a true chaotic has now gone out of his mind. He is quite insane. Note that insanity precludes many psionic attacks and the like (mind control etc.). If the DM says that the sword now controls your body he's ripped. The sword will now leave you alone and try to find another wielder. If your party has any brains they will get you a Restoration spell. Note: don't let your DM get away with having the sword Heal your insanity!! Make sure you define your problem as very deep and connected with the sword. Having the sword Heal you, even if it worked, would cause an AUTOMATIC relapse! Some forms of Insanity can only be cured by Restoration so you do have something to found this on. Hope this is helpful, UltraChaos Forever - Moshe Eliovson {allegra, ihnp4}!we53!busch!mte
barryg@sdcrdcf.UUCP (Lee Gold) (07/12/85)
An ego weapon (obviously) has a personality and a history. Find out about it. (If the GM's lazy, make up your own name and history and have himer OK it.) An ego weapon is just another PC. Here's what you should know about it: 1. Name (and possibly several aliases too) 2. Forger (name, species, culture) and Purpose (why would anyone forge a weapon of Ego 19?) 3. Appearance 4. Significant owners, their motivation, their success, their relationship to it. 5. Its current motivations. For instance, here's a possible history for your Neutral Ego 19 weapon. Onceuponatime the human kingdom of Chingzat was threatened by Ogre Magi who could Charm anyone. A loyal servant escaped with the queen's newborn son, the heir to the throne, and sought shelter in a dwarvish cavern. There he toiled for nineteen years to pay for his keep and that of the prine. Finally his master, the Dwarfsmith Frambish, told him he had served his time and could demand a service in return. He asked for a sword that would protect his prince from the Ogres domination. Frambish forged him an Ego 19 sword that would save as its level against all attempts at mental domination of its wielder. (One ego point for each year of service.) It also had a number of other useful abilities (which I failed to note while reading your article, but which your history could explain.) Now that gives us a sword which is prejudiced for dwarves, against Ogre Magi, has a dwarflike fondness for gems and gold and dislike of ostentation. (Its wielder might want to wear an ornately gemmed cloak, with the gems on the inside. They're less liable to break that way.) Oh yeah, a name. True Heart. (That's Vericor, in Latin. Nice rolling sound.) You also want to know whether the sword's idealistic or cynical after all these years, optimistic or pessimistic. One way to get this sort of personality for new characters or NPCs is to get an astrology book and use it as a character-builder. I particularly recommend Lewi's HEAVEN KNOWS WHAT which lists 144 different character types (based on Sun Moon combination) with hundreds of other complicating factors. --Lee Gold
ekblaw@uiucdcs.Uiuc.ARPA (07/12/85)
I have to agree with this person. I, too, have never strictly followed the "Sword INT/EGO" rules. And don't give me this bunk about giving a sword attributes! Most swords, even those inbued with magic, are inanimate objects, having NO free will or intellect. Magic does not automatically grant intelligence. If it did, a magic-user would simply enchant every object he could get his/her hands on, and PRESTO! instant intelligence. Let's face it, that's a stunt not even a god would do. I usually manage magical swords much like other magical artifacts; having major and minor benevolent abilities, malevolent abilities, and side effects. In my mind, that is the way that is most logical. If I were DMing, this gent would not have a problem, unless the sword were cursed or had a serious side effect. Even then, it could interesting, which it sounds like he would enjoy. Robert A. Ekblaw net: ihnp4!uiucdcs!ekblaw
mccolm@ucla-cs.UUCP (07/14/85)
*** PAC-Mailer Wasn't Here *** About magic/egotistical swords: If the sword is capable of controlling the character *all* of the time, this raises some problems for the campaign. I don't propose to enumerate the problems, but just to give my ideas for getting rid of egocentric magic items, and the assumptions on which the methods are based. 1) Any magic item can be sold/dropped into a nearby pond/disposed of *if* the weapon does not have 24-hour control of the character. Some Refs actually put rules into magic items like "can control people only in daylight, or during the Festival of the Eclipse" or some such combination. Why would a sword want to control a character in the privies? 2) A character (not actually possessed by the sword) can simply refuse to fight, adventure, or other, playing the part of the coward, until the sword gets bored and asks to be traded to someone who will use it. 3) A character may brag about the exploits, and incidentally show off the power of the sword (egomaniacs are vain), inviting theft and challenge. Could kill the character, but this may serve the Ref right for creating the situation. 4) A character may fulfill the letter of every command by perverting the spirit. You think Djinni have cornered the market on bitchiness? Make the Ref spell out every command. This should be used only in cases where the possession is heniously unfair, not in just any sword-vs-character duel. 5) In my campaigns, I have a fun rule about such stuff. If the character can put down the sword WITHOUT THINKING ABOUT OR REALIZING IT, the sword must save or be put down. And that's it. How do you do that? The Ref must consider whether the character has begun a 2-handed operation without realizing that it would be so. This is entirely up to the Ref. 6) Comatose people automatically drop everything they were carrying. 7) Attack a pack of rust monsters. :-) The sword now has a dilemma. Fight the monsters, and likely perish, or relinquish control so the character can draw another weapon. Jellies, oozes, slimes, same deal. 8) Hobnob with the Powers That Be in the kingdom, i.e. important and renowned warriors. The sword will likely prefer their company to yours. 9) Explain to the Ref that if the Ref wishes to run the character for any length of time without the possibility of player intervention, then the character should be retired to NPC status until the character either recovers, dies, or gains more control over the sword. The player should be prepared to accept statements like "This is only temporary" in good faith, but it Must Be temporary. Be prepared to leave the campaign if it continues beyond four (4) game sessions without the Ref making clear and definite provisions for either a replacement or a cure. In the case of the FTR/CL in particular, the person now advances as a cleric. This is incontrovertible, because of what the Ref has said. Now, this means the character attacks and progresses as a cleric, with appropriate experience to the next level, and all that. Unfortunately, the character cannot use spells. The character also cannot obey the class restriction on weapons (if it is used in the campaign) because of the ego of the sword. This means the cleric will not be in the favor of the patron deity, and no salvation will come from that route. Atonement is likewise impossible. So the cleric will advance as a basically wimpy fighter, attacking as a cleric, using only that weapon, knowing no spells, and being sent constant reminders of the character's failure to abide by the teachings of the deity. No fun. --fini-- Eric McColm UCLA (oo' - kluh) Funny Farm for the Criminally Harmless UUCP: ...!{ihnp4,trwspp,cepu,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!mccolm ARPA: (evolved) mccolm@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU (pre-cambrian) mccolm@UCLA-CS.ARPA Quotes on the Nature of Existence: "To be, or not to be..." -Hamlet (Wm. Shakespeare) "I think, therefore I am." -R. Descartes "<Gleep!>" -Gleep (Robt. Asprin)
kay@warwick.UUCP (Kay Dekker) (07/17/85)
In article <9300046@uiucdcs> ekblaw@uiucdcs.Uiuc.ARPA writes: >.... Most swords, even those inbued with magic, are inanimate >objects, having NO free will or intellect. Magic does not automatically >grant intelligence. If it did, a magic-user would simply enchant every >object he could get his/her hands on, and PRESTO! instant intelligence. Let's >face it, that's a stunt not even a god would do. Would that make it an AI hacker? :-) Kay. -- "In a world without rational structure, even the most bizarre events must eventually take place." -- Philip Avalon, "On the Resurrection of Reagan" ... mcvax!ukc!warwick!flame!kay
hollombe@ttidcc.UUCP (The Polymath) (07/17/85)
In article <6313@ucla-cs.ARPA> mccolm@ucla-cs.UUCP (Eric McColm) writes: >About magic/egotistical swords: If the sword is capable of controlling the >character *all* of the time, this raises some problems for the campaign. >I don't propose to enumerate the problems ... We have this situation in the campaign I'm playing in now. In effect, we have a sword walking around wearing a hobbit thief. We know the hobbit won't be able to control the sword 'til he's become a Master Thief several times over (our party is about 4th-5th level right now). On the other hand, the sword has so many useful abilities that we'd really hate to lose it. (Telepathy, the ability to store spells for later use -- including two full wishes that we know of, and several thousand years of experience to draw on). The sword is purposed to protect hobbits, so it isn't entirely a bad deal for the thief. The way our DM is playing it, the hobbit has full autonomy subject to review by the sword. If he sets out to do something the sword objects to he's stopped. Most of the time, though, he can do pretty much what he wants (which has gotten us into trouble more than once (-: ). The sword generally doesn't offer advice unless asked and doesn't always know everything. The hobbit voluntarily took up the sword, knowing it would probably control him. So far we've had no reason to try to get rid of it and the sword has expressed no desire to leave. On the other hand, hobbits have been rarities in our campaign world so far. We have no idea what may happen if we run into a lot of them. -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_ The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe) Citicorp TTI Common Sense is what tells you that a ten 3100 Ocean Park Blvd. pound weight falls ten times as fast as a Santa Monica, CA 90405 one pound weight. (213) 450-9111, ext. 2483 {philabs,randvax,trwrb,vortex}!ttidca!ttidcc!hollombe
hutch@shark.UUCP (Stephen Hutchison) (07/18/85)
In article <6313@ucla-cs.ARPA> mccolm@ucla-cs.UUCP (Eric McColm) writes: >*** PAC-Mailer Wasn't Here *** > >About magic/egotistical swords: If the sword is capable of controlling the >character *all* of the time, this raises some problems for the campaign. A solution to the problem is to determine what, exactly, it means for a sword to have an ego. Larry Niven, in "Glass Dagger", postulated a magic sword which WAS a demon, bound by magic into the shape of a sword. The sword dominated its victims by (first) taking a "bite" out of them, so that they couldn't let go. It then caused them to be more warlike, meantimes sucking the life out of them. The great sword Orcrist would be (in a higher-magic campaign) a powerful holy sword, yet had no discernable Ego. Stormbringer and Mournblade were facets of the same entity, and had real personality. RuneQuest ego-blades have a spirit bound to them. "The Fantasy Trip" allows for magic swords with egoes being either variants on gem-trapped spirits or blades with gem-trapped spirits affixed. In any of these cases what you've got is a blade which has a separate living personality, which is able to act only through another person. Any of the really impressive swords in fantasy would count as artifacts in a well-balanced campaign. Therefore, they might be able to be more compelling than the usual sword. So as for "ordinary" magic swords: I implement egoblades as being either elementals bound in the form of a sword (I don't use the standard 4-way elemental system) or as being enchanted or blessed blades which have some spirit bound to them. Holy swords have a Minion of their patron deity bound to them, which makes them able to function very much like clerics to that deity. As a curse, the blade could have added to it the ability to dominate the wielder, but in my own campaign this would require (for each crisis) that the sword have to target this power. In AD&D terms, the wielder saves vs. the command. Once the wielder lost, it would take a remove curse, exorcism, or some similar effect, to make the wielder STOP with a compelled course of action. Once the course of action was completed, though, the wielder could save against the next compulsion. It could also have added to it the CURSE that the wielder couldn't drop the blade, but this is susceptible to any of the several methods for removing curses. What WOULD be likely in my campaign would be the wilful refusal of the sword to use its powers to help a creature which bothered it, and the suppression (or even malicious reversal) of its magical sharpness, plusses, and so forth, if a character refused its silent promptings that it wants to move onward to a new owner. The real point of all this blathering is that I consider any sword lifted from modern fantasy, especially the Elric stories, to be artifact-quality magic and blessedly rare. As far as artifacts afflicting their users, the history of the artifact would clearly determine who was affected how. Hutch
jacob@chalmers.UUCP (Jacob Hallen) (07/24/85)
An other way of viewing swords with ego and intelligence is that it is in fact a person and that it has a soul. The only way of getting a soul into a sword is putting it there. Only the greater gods can create souls so some intelligent swords are bound to be created by them. The rest are created by locking the soul of a live human (or demihuman) in the sword. This should apply to other intelligent magic items also. The way I run these items, I consider intelligence as the intelligence of the person bound in the item and the ego as the level of the of the person bound. In this way the items get more personality and it is easier to provide them with a coherent history. In general evil and good swords contain the souls of people who wish to continue their deeds of evil/good without risking death. Neutral swords tend to contain the souls of people who fear death and have taken the ultimate step to avoid it. Jacob Nazgul is the trademark of Lidless Eye Inc.