[net.games.frp] Inanimate ego/intelligence

west@uts.am.reading.UUCP (Jeremy West) (07/08/85)

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I have long been amused by the rather foolish sword ego rules in
AD&D, but have recently been unfortunate enuff to play under a DM
who takes them seriously. Here is my plea for help!

Background:

     A human split class 6/6 FTR/CL picks up a book (foolish) and
promptly looses all but 2 xp, 1 in each class. DM rules he is a
first level FT with first level CL abilities. He seeks devine
advice, changes his name to Bookworm and sets forth, content in
the knowledge that he must advance again as a FTR until he reaches
sixth level whereupon he MUST revert to being a CL.

The problem:

    (and with a different DM...)

    At fourth level FTR, he (and the party) are slept and kidnapped
for sacrifice; escape and eventually clear out the baddies - with the
help of a rusty old sword found in the tunnels by the dungeon cells.
You guessed it, the sword is intelligent and very egotistical. Okay,
no problem... until I get to the end of the adventure and try to recover
my old magic. No way! Sh*t! Never mind, win some loose some. But then
I am told the swords ego is 19. I CAN'T overcome this bugger until I
reach 21st level. And I CAN'T reach 21st level cos I have to revert to
being a cleric at sixth! This is where the fun starts.

The question:

       How do you play ego weapons?
       
The character does not wish to keep the sword - apart from loss of magic
(nasty but part of the game) Bookworm is a chaotic who is now imprisoned
by the will of another - surely the ultimate horror for a chaotic?
But, if Bookworm is not under the absolute sway of the sword
all the time, it can hardly 'force into combat' or any other
manifestation of ego. So he has to be either possesed by the sword,
or else he simply physically cannot let go of it!

If possession, things are tough for my character, since when he reaches
sixth level all advancement will cease; but, being controlled by the sword
he daren't change class, seek help or anything. Not as much fun to play
as the character I used to play - I'd rather play a character I have
developed than one imposed from above. I acknowledge that I could
develop him into a character worth playing, but when he can't use or
take any magic, can't use or take any xp and is limited in his
spending opportunities (since he is not in a campaign)....... sigh.

If the latter (unable to let go, in constant fear of ego shock if he
disobays the sword, but able at least to rationalise his dilemma), I can
at least try to manouver so as to dispose of the darn thing.

Obviously I would like to believe that ego items can only influence
their "owners" if actually on the person of the victim.  Thus, the
means of control is the threat of 19 points of damage per segment!
This implies that even telepathic items cannot read minds (but use
mental "radio waves" to contact others) and so the item cannot know
(but could guess - it is intelligent after all) what the user is thinking.
But at least the user can attempt to overthrow the yoke of oppression,
just as a 'humble +1 sword can be a vocal martyr' (sword ego rules),
so the unfortunate character can try to oppose the item, making
insubordinate comments, attempting to walk into anti-magic shells etc.

And if the item (in the persona of the DM) fails to see the outcome
of the character's action... then the character is free, or the comment
will pass un-noticed and the player has some feeling that the game is
still fun after all!

So, what does everyone think? How to play ego items so they are still
FUN, even if they offer the odd disadvantage from time to time.

Personally, I would ignore ego, but give the item some habits /
side-effects / disadvantages which may be outweighed by the benefits /
advantages of possessing the item. The sword in question is +3 and has
a 'heal' 1/day. Very useful, but the potential loss of freedom of
action is too high a price for this particular character. If, on the
other hand, the sword constrained me to never accepting healing
from others - or some similar penalty in keeping with the sword's
history and purpose, the trade would be more likely to be acceptable
to the character and hence to the player. I don't mind taking knocks,
but the game must still be fun.

A second question arising from this matter is this:

Would a Chaotic/Neutral sword (most seem to presume items are absolutely
faithful to their alignment) 'possess' another C/N when freedom from
abitrary restriction seems to be a fundamental axiom of the chaotic
nature?

Anyway, this is already far too long, but I hope it sparks some
discussion...

Jerry

-----
  west%rdg.cs@ucl-cs.ARPA       | Dept of Computer Science,
  west@cs.reading.UUCP          | University of Reading,
  west@uk.ac.reading.cs (JANET) | READING, RG6 2AX, U.K.

mte@busch.UUCP (Moshe Eliovson) (07/11/85)

> I have long been amused by the rather foolish sword ego rules in
> AD&D, but have recently been unfortunate enuff to play under a DM
> who takes them seriously. Here is my plea for help!

	While I can certainly understand your frustration, giving
	swords attributes goes right along with their magical    
	abilities.  You can't say well I want the good stuff alone,
	and if the sword's alignment is the same as your own you're
	in great shape if the DM is creative enough to play it like
	the friend it is.  This can become quite an asset if you're
	both of the same alignment, since the sword will:
		a) if it's ego is weaker - it will worship you
		b) if it's stronger it will of course berate you
		   for your weakness but might possibly carry you
		   to higher levels (if it's magical properties are
		   strong enough).

  
> The question:
> 
> Obviously I would like to believe that ego items can only influence
> their "owners" if actually on the person of the victim.  Thus, the
> means of control is the threat of 19 points of damage per segment!

	Is this correct?  The shock is supposed to be the DIFFERENCE
	between both your egos.

> This implies that even telepathic items cannot read minds (but use
> mental "radio waves" to contact others) and so the item cannot know
> (but could guess - it is intelligent after all) what the user is thinking.

	The sword is not psychic unless one of it's abilities is
	empathy, esp, or something... but it can certainly be aware
	of your actions.

> But at least the user can attempt to overthrow the yoke of oppression,
> just as a 'humble +1 sword can be a vocal martyr' (sword ego rules),
> so the unfortunate character can try to oppose the item, making
> insubordinate comments, attempting to walk into anti-magic shells etc.

	That might work but I wouldn't give your DM that option.  That
	makes anti-magic shell very, very powerful.
  
> 
> Would a Chaotic/Neutral sword (most seem to presume items are absolutely
> faithful to their alignment) 'possess' another C/N when freedom from
> abitrary restriction seems to be a fundamental axiom of the chaotic
> nature?
> 

	A sword of the same alignment and goals should start off as a
	friend, unless the sword has a history (like being left rusting
	in a dungeon for years) and has its own ideas.  The definition
	of chaotic allows the sword to possess you although I'm not sure
	I'd rule that way.  From your character's history it sounds like
	your DM has been royally screwing you.

I have two sample solutions.

1) Find a higher level chaotic and let the sword choose between you.  If
   the sword doesn't like this one try another...

2) You are absolutely right.  Tell the DM that your character being a true
   chaotic has now gone out of his mind.  He is quite insane.  Note that 
   insanity precludes many psionic attacks and the like (mind control etc.).
   If the DM says that the sword now controls your body he's ripped.  The
   sword will now leave you alone and try to find another wielder.  If your
   party has any brains they will get you a Restoration spell.  Note: don't
   let your DM get away with having the sword Heal your insanity!!  Make sure
   you define your problem as very deep and connected with the sword.  Having
   the sword Heal you, even if it worked, would cause an AUTOMATIC relapse!
   Some forms of Insanity can only be cured by Restoration so you do have something
   to found this on.

			Hope this is helpful,

			UltraChaos Forever - Moshe Eliovson
			{allegra, ihnp4}!we53!busch!mte
				

barryg@sdcrdcf.UUCP (Lee Gold) (07/12/85)

An ego weapon (obviously) has a personality and a history.  Find out about
it.  (If the GM's lazy, make up your own name and history and have himer
OK it.)

An ego weapon is just another PC.  Here's what you should know about it:
	1.  Name (and possibly several aliases too)
	2.  Forger (name, species, culture) and Purpose (why would anyone
forge a weapon of Ego 19?)
	3.  Appearance
	4.  Significant owners, their motivation, their success, their
relationship to it.
	5.  Its current motivations.

For instance, here's a possible history for your Neutral Ego 19 weapon.

Onceuponatime the human kingdom of Chingzat was threatened by Ogre Magi
who could Charm anyone.  A loyal servant escaped with the queen's newborn
son, the heir to the throne, and sought shelter in a dwarvish cavern.
There he toiled for nineteen years to pay for his keep and that of the
prine.  Finally his master, the Dwarfsmith Frambish, told him he had
served his time and could demand a service in return.  He asked for a
sword that would protect his prince from the Ogres domination.  Frambish
forged him an Ego 19 sword that would save as its level against all attempts
at mental domination of its wielder.  (One ego point for each year of
service.)

It also had a number of other useful abilities (which I failed to note
while reading your article, but which your history could explain.)

Now that gives us a sword which is prejudiced for dwarves, against
Ogre Magi, has a dwarflike fondness for gems and gold and dislike of
ostentation.  (Its wielder might want to wear an ornately gemmed cloak,
with the gems on the inside.  They're less liable to break that way.)

Oh yeah, a name.  True Heart.  (That's Vericor, in Latin.  Nice rolling
sound.)

You also want to know whether the sword's idealistic or cynical after all
these years, optimistic or pessimistic.  One way to get this sort of
personality for new characters or NPCs is to get an astrology book and
use it as a character-builder.  I particularly recommend Lewi's HEAVEN
KNOWS WHAT which lists 144 different character types (based on Sun Moon
combination) with hundreds of other complicating factors.

--Lee Gold

ekblaw@uiucdcs.Uiuc.ARPA (07/12/85)

     I have to agree with this person.  I, too, have never strictly followed
the "Sword INT/EGO" rules.  And don't give me this bunk about giving a sword
attributes!  Most swords, even those inbued with magic, are inanimate
objects, having NO free will or intellect.  Magic does not automatically
grant intelligence.  If it did, a magic-user would simply enchant every
object he could get his/her hands on, and PRESTO! instant intelligence.  Let's
face it, that's a stunt not even a god would do.
    I usually manage magical swords much like other magical artifacts; having
major and minor benevolent abilities, malevolent abilities, and side effects.
In my mind, that is the way that is most logical.  If I were DMing, this
gent would not have a problem, unless the sword were cursed or had a serious
side effect.  Even then, it could interesting, which it sounds like he would
enjoy.

Robert A. Ekblaw

net: ihnp4!uiucdcs!ekblaw

mccolm@ucla-cs.UUCP (07/14/85)

*** PAC-Mailer Wasn't Here ***

About magic/egotistical swords:  If the sword is capable of controlling the
character *all* of the time, this raises some problems for the campaign.
I don't propose to enumerate the problems, but just to give my ideas for
getting rid of egocentric magic items, and the assumptions on which the
methods are based.

1)  Any magic item can be sold/dropped into a nearby pond/disposed of *if*
the weapon does not have 24-hour control of the character.  Some Refs
actually put rules into magic items like "can control people only in daylight,
or during the Festival of the Eclipse" or some such combination.  Why would
a sword want to control a character in the privies?

2)  A character (not actually possessed by the sword) can simply refuse to
fight, adventure, or other, playing the part of the coward, until the sword
gets bored and asks to be traded to someone who will use it.

3)  A character may brag about the exploits, and incidentally show off the
power of the sword (egomaniacs are vain), inviting theft and challenge.
Could kill the character, but this may serve the Ref right for creating
the situation.

4)  A character may fulfill the letter of every command by perverting the
spirit.  You think Djinni have cornered the market on bitchiness?  Make the
Ref spell out every command.  This should be used only in cases where the
possession is heniously unfair, not in just any sword-vs-character duel.

5)  In my campaigns, I have a fun rule about such stuff.  If the character
can put down the sword WITHOUT THINKING ABOUT OR REALIZING IT, the sword must
save or be put down.  And that's it.  How do you do that?  The Ref must
consider whether the character has begun a 2-handed operation without
realizing that it would be so.  This is entirely up to the Ref.

6)  Comatose people automatically drop everything they were carrying.

7)  Attack a pack of rust monsters.  :-)  The sword now has a dilemma.
Fight the monsters, and likely perish, or relinquish control so the
character can draw another weapon.  Jellies, oozes, slimes, same deal.

8)  Hobnob with the Powers That Be in the kingdom, i.e. important and
renowned warriors.  The sword will likely prefer their company to yours.

9)  Explain to the Ref that if the Ref wishes to run the character for
any length of time without the possibility of player intervention, then
the character should be retired to NPC status until the character either
recovers, dies, or gains more control over the sword.  The player should
be prepared to accept statements like "This is only temporary" in good
faith, but it Must Be temporary.  Be prepared to leave the campaign if
it continues beyond four (4) game sessions without the Ref making clear
and definite provisions for either a replacement or a cure.

In the case of the FTR/CL in particular, the person now advances as a cleric.
This is incontrovertible, because of what the Ref has said.  Now, this means
the character attacks and progresses as a cleric, with appropriate experience
to the next level, and all that.  Unfortunately, the character cannot use
spells.  The character also cannot obey the class restriction on weapons
(if it is used in the campaign) because of the ego of the sword.  This
means the cleric will not be in the favor of the patron deity, and no
salvation will come from that route.  Atonement is likewise impossible.
So the cleric will advance as a basically wimpy fighter, attacking as a
cleric, using only that weapon, knowing no spells, and being sent constant
reminders of the character's failure to abide by the teachings of the deity.
No fun.
--fini--

Eric McColm
UCLA (oo' - kluh) Funny Farm for the Criminally Harmless
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Quotes on the Nature of Existence:
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   "I think, therefore I am."  -R. Descartes
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kay@warwick.UUCP (Kay Dekker) (07/17/85)

In article <9300046@uiucdcs> ekblaw@uiucdcs.Uiuc.ARPA writes:
>....  Most swords, even those inbued with magic, are inanimate
>objects, having NO free will or intellect.  Magic does not automatically
>grant intelligence.  If it did, a magic-user would simply enchant every
>object he could get his/her hands on, and PRESTO! instant intelligence.  Let's
>face it, that's a stunt not even a god would do.

Would that make it an AI hacker? :-)
						Kay.
-- 
"In a world without rational structure, even the most bizarre events must
eventually take place."   -- Philip Avalon, "On the Resurrection of Reagan"
			
			... mcvax!ukc!warwick!flame!kay

hollombe@ttidcc.UUCP (The Polymath) (07/17/85)

In article <6313@ucla-cs.ARPA> mccolm@ucla-cs.UUCP (Eric McColm) writes:
>About magic/egotistical swords:  If the sword is capable of controlling the
>character *all* of the time, this raises some problems for the campaign.
>I don't propose to enumerate the problems ...

We have this situation in the campaign I'm playing in now.  In  effect,  we
have  a  sword  walking  around wearing a hobbit thief.  We know the hobbit
won't be able to control the sword 'til he's become a Master Thief  several
times  over  (our  party  is  about 4th-5th level right now).  On the other
hand, the sword has so many useful abilities that we'd really hate to  lose
it.  (Telepathy, the ability to store spells for later use -- including two
full wishes that we know of, and several thousand years  of  experience  to
draw on).  The sword is purposed to protect hobbits, so it isn't entirely a
bad deal for the thief.

The way our DM is playing it, the  hobbit  has  full  autonomy  subject  to
review  by  the sword.  If he sets out to do something the sword objects to
he's stopped.  Most of the time, though, he can  do  pretty  much  what  he
wants  (which  has  gotten us into trouble more than once (-: ).  The sword
generally doesn't  offer  advice  unless  asked  and  doesn't  always  know
everything.

The hobbit voluntarily took up the sword, knowing it would probably control
him.  So  far we've had no reason to try to get rid of it and the sword has
expressed no desire  to  leave.  On  the  other  hand,  hobbits  have  been
rarities  in our campaign world so far.  We have no idea what may happen if
we run into a lot of them.
-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_
The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe)
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hutch@shark.UUCP (Stephen Hutchison) (07/18/85)

In article <6313@ucla-cs.ARPA> mccolm@ucla-cs.UUCP (Eric McColm) writes:
>*** PAC-Mailer Wasn't Here ***
>
>About magic/egotistical swords:  If the sword is capable of controlling the
>character *all* of the time, this raises some problems for the campaign.

A solution to the problem is to determine what, exactly, it means for a
sword to have an ego.

Larry Niven, in "Glass Dagger", postulated a magic sword which WAS a demon,
bound by magic into the shape of a sword.  The sword dominated its victims
by (first) taking a "bite" out of them, so that they couldn't let go.  It
then caused them to be more warlike, meantimes sucking the life out of them.

The great sword Orcrist would be (in a higher-magic campaign) a powerful
holy sword, yet had no discernable Ego.

Stormbringer and Mournblade were facets of the same entity, and had real
personality.

RuneQuest ego-blades have a spirit bound to them.  "The Fantasy Trip" allows
for magic swords with egoes being either variants on gem-trapped spirits or
blades with gem-trapped spirits affixed.

In any of these cases what you've got is a blade which has a separate
living personality, which is able to act only through another person.

Any of the really impressive swords in fantasy would count as artifacts
in a well-balanced campaign.  Therefore, they might be able to be more
compelling than the usual sword.

So as for "ordinary" magic swords:  I implement egoblades as being either
elementals bound in the form of a sword (I don't use the standard 4-way
elemental system) or as being enchanted or blessed blades which have some
spirit bound to them.  Holy swords have a Minion of their patron deity
bound to them, which makes them able to function very much like clerics
to that deity.

As a curse, the blade could have added to it the ability to dominate the
wielder, but in my own campaign this would require (for each crisis) that
the sword have to target this power.  In AD&D terms, the wielder saves
vs. the command.  Once the wielder lost, it would take a remove curse,
exorcism, or some similar effect, to make the wielder STOP with a compelled
course of action.  Once the course of action was completed, though, the
wielder could save against the next compulsion.

It could also have added to it the CURSE that the wielder couldn't drop
the blade, but this is susceptible to any of the several methods for
removing curses.

What WOULD be likely in my campaign would be the wilful refusal of the
sword to use its powers to help a creature which bothered it, and the
suppression (or even malicious reversal) of its magical sharpness, plusses,
and so forth, if a character refused its silent promptings that it wants
to move onward to a new owner.

The real point of all this blathering is that I consider any sword lifted
from modern fantasy, especially the Elric stories, to be artifact-quality
magic and blessedly rare.

As far as artifacts afflicting their users, the history of the artifact
would clearly determine who was affected how.

Hutch

jacob@chalmers.UUCP (Jacob Hallen) (07/24/85)

An other way of viewing swords with ego and intelligence is that it is in
fact a person and that it has a soul. The only way of getting a soul into a
sword is putting it there. Only the greater gods can create souls so some
intelligent swords are bound to be created by them. The rest are created
by locking the soul of a live human (or demihuman) in the sword.
This should apply to other intelligent magic items also.

The way I run these items, I consider intelligence as the intelligence
of the person bound in the item and the ego as the level of the of the
person bound. 
In this way the items get more personality and it is easier to provide
them with a coherent history.
In general evil and good swords contain the souls of people who wish to
continue their deeds of evil/good without risking death. Neutral swords
tend to contain the souls of people who fear death and have taken the
ultimate step to avoid it.

Jacob

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