mjcarmody@watmath.UUCP (Mike Carmody) (07/17/85)
>I think I know what the GM was getting at, though. In his case, I might >have instead offered the character a choice: you can either go to Evil >and be ONE LEVEL HIGHER or stay the level and alignment you are. I've >had a lot of fun with offering people tempting choices. Much more than I'd >get from NO Saving Throw spells or You Can't Take It Off magic items. >Instead I offer Rings of +3 Protection to anyone who betrayed a friend to >death; a cloak embroidered with red drops that makes you a Vampire >of Your Level +4 -- which randomly strikes someone (party or enemy) the >first time on a run it sees blood, etc. SAnd then watch the players >squirm in agony. > >--Lee Gold I love it! (Honk, Shiva still out there?) In the campaigns I've run whenever an alignment change was forced (lycanthropy, curse, etc.) the characters tend to act out of their NEW character in trying to get corrective measures performed and get their level(s) back (either this or commit Hari Kari in a unique way). So all this alignment change did was cause a hassle for the players and DM. A truly (ie. role playing) evil character is fun to have in a campaign but to get the kind of role playing necessary the player has to actually want to be evil (the same way as a real alignment changer would act). This kind of motivation for the attitude change in the actual player is the best thing I've heard of yet, much better than saying to the player 'For the sake of game integrity you have to play this alignment correctly'. Here you can sit back and relax and watch the party get VERY nervous when strange things start happening for no known reason. ie. Watch the party squirm. Barry Rosetti, CSG "When in trouble, run and shout, jump in panic, run about"-Heinlein (sp?)
js2j@mhuxt.UUCP (sonntag) (07/18/85)
> In the campaigns I've run whenever an alignment change was forced > (lycanthropy, curse, etc.) the characters tend to act out of their NEW > character in trying to get corrective measures performed and get their > level(s) back (either this or commit Hari Kari in a unique way). So all > this alignment change did was cause a hassle for the players and DM. > I've seen this problem before too, and the cause is rather simple. Characters whose alignments have been changed (and DMs apparently, too) sometimes seem to think that their character still wants to be of the old alignment, and that the alignment 'change' which they have undergone is merely cosmetic. Not so! If some powerful magic item or curse truly changed their alignment, then the character should be quite happy in their new alignment, truly resisting the well-intentioned efforts of their former compatriots to change them back. If a player is unsuited to play a character of the new alignment, or if the character can no longer fit into the party with the new alignment, then the DM has made a serious mistake in forcing the change. Under no circumstances, however, should the DM allow the newly evil character, for example, to rush into a good church to try and switch back. -- Jeff Sonntag ihnp4!mhuxt!js2j "Well I've been burned before, and I know the score, so you won't hear me complain. Are you willing to risk it all, or is your love in vain?"-Dylan
slb@drutx.UUCP (Sue Brezden) (07/18/85)
>>I've had a lot of fun with offering people tempting choices. >>--Lee Gold >This kind of motivation for >the attitude change in the actual player is the best thing I've >heard of yet, Sounds great. I think this could be applied with great force and frequency to clerics. After all, a rival god would not necessarily want to squash the clerics of his/her heavenly enemy. It would be so much more satisfying to win them over, especially if they are fairly high level. Surely gods can behave intelligently and offer bribes--perhaps in the form of levels, additional spells, a hotline prayer ability once a week, or some such. >I love it! (Honk, Shiva still out there?) > Barry Rosetti, CSG Shiva is ALWAYS out there. -- Sue Brezden Real World: Room 1B17 Net World: ihnp4!drutx!slb AT&T Information Systems 11900 North Pecos Westminster, Co. 80234 (303)538-3829 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Your god may be dead, but mine aren't. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
gamma@ih1ap.UUCP (tontille) (07/19/85)
[] I recently ran a scenario where one of my players discovered an item changing him to LG. His outlook on life was so drastically altered, that he is now tricking his traveling companions to employ the item, so that everyone can experience the joy of 'New Life'. Key-Man (and the Masters of Technology).
robert@fear.UUCP (Robert Plamondon) (07/23/85)
In article <1016@mhuxt.UUCP>, js2j@mhuxt.UUCP (sonntag) writes: > > In the campaigns I've run whenever an alignment change was forced > > (lycanthropy, curse, etc.) the characters tend to act out of their NEW > > character in trying to get corrective measures performed and get their > > level(s) back (either this or commit Hari Kari in a unique way). So all > > this alignment change did was cause a hassle for the players and DM. > > > I've seen this problem before too, and the cause is rather simple. > Characters whose alignments have been changed (and DMs apparently, too) > sometimes seem to think that their character still wants to be of the old > alignment, and that the alignment 'change' which they have undergone is > merely cosmetic. > -- Jeff Sonntag The problem with alignment change is that the GM is (in effect) telling you to throw away your character and start a new character -- and play it *HIS* way. This breaks the cardinal rule of Game Mastering: "Don't mess with other people's characterization." It's obnoxious and destructive. I think that the proper response to having your character's personality changed is to rip the character sheet into confetti, and start looking for another campaign. (If you tell the GM this before you start play, he's unlikely to do it to you.) -- "Quid me anxius sum?" -- E. Alfredus Numanus Robert Plamondon {turtlevax, resonex, cae780}!weitek!robert
barryg@sdcrdcf.UUCP (Lee Gold) (07/25/85)
Most of the successful Alignment Changes I've heard of were to confirm true alignment. Like the "Paladin" who'd just finished torturing the Neutral Orc Princess to find where her father kept his money. That was after backstabbing two of his party members. The GM had a party of Trolls trot up, salute, and say, "Sir, we admire your greatly. Why not change to Evil so you can head our command and really give this dungeon a going over." He left with them. --Lee Gold
mazina@pur-ee.UUCP (Der Kaiser) (07/28/85)
( I LOVE baiting the NSA!) >First rule of Dungeon >Mastering: "Don't mess with other people's characterization." It's >obnoxious and destructive. > >I think that the proper response to having your character's >personality changed is to rip the character sheet into confetti, and >start looking for another campaign. > >(If you tell the GM this before you start play, he's unlikely to do it >to you.) > Robert Plamondon This is outrageous silliness. You should NEVER attempt to blackmail a DM like that! "Don't do XXX or I'll quit!" is the statement of a MUNCHKIN! You can make your dipleasure known, but you shouldn't quit unless it was really unjustified, like out of nowhere. The proper response is to try and play the character as someone who has a complete change of heart, with the attendant soul searching, mental trauma, and partial relapses common. If you do it well, it can be a LOT of fun....
mff@wuphys.UUCP (Swamp Thing) (07/29/85)
In article <229@fear.UUCP> robert@fear.UUCP (Robert Plamondon) writes: >The problem with alignment change is that the GM is (in effect) >telling you to throw away your character and start a new character -- >and play it *HIS* way. This breaks the cardinal rule of Game >Mastering: "Don't mess with other people's characterization." It's >obnoxious and destructive. > >I think that the proper response to having your character's >personality changed is to rip the character sheet into confetti, and >start looking for another campaign. > > Robert Plamondon > {turtlevax, resonex, cae780}!weitek!robert I have to strongly disagree with all of this. There's nothing more challenging to me as a player than to have to switch "personalities" in midstream. All of a sudden, you have this irresistable urge to kill your party members. What could be more fun? From your comments above, how would you handle being charmed by someone of an opposing alignment? Even though this is ussually temporary, the effect is pretty much the same. Mark F. Flynn Department of Physics Washington University St. Louis, MO 63130 ihnp4!wuphys!mff "There is no dark side of the moon, really. Matter of fact, it's all dark." P. Floyd
robert@fear.UUCP (Robert Plamondon) (07/30/85)
> >First rule of Dungeon > >Mastering: "Don't mess with other people's characterization." It's > >obnoxious and destructive. > > > >I think that the proper response to having your character's > >personality changed is to rip the character sheet into confetti, and > >start looking for another campaign. > > > >(If you tell the GM this before you start play, he's unlikely to do it > >to you.) > > Robert Plamondon In article <3081@pur-ee.UUCP>, mazina@pur-ee.UUCP (Der Kaiser) writes: > This is outrageous silliness. You should NEVER attempt to blackmail > a DM like that! "Don't do XXX or I'll quit!" is the statement of a MUNCHKIN! > You can make your dipleasure known, but you shouldn't quit unless it was > really unjustified, like out of nowhere. The proper response is to try and > play the character as someone who has a complete change of heart, with the > attendant soul searching, mental trauma, and partial relapses common. If you > do it well, it can be a LOT of fun.... I guess most of the trouble is that I haven't played D&D in a long time, having switched to other game systems that make realistic game action and characterization fairly easy. I've gotten into the habit of developing my characters carefully; putting a lot of time and care into them. In such circumstances, a GM who dictates that my character undergo a personality change is being cruel. He's *KILLING* my old character, and expects me to play a monster inside my old character's skin -- and *LIKE* it! Of course, this isn't a problem for most players. For them, alignment is something you write on your character sheet, that has effects on who you kill and what magic treasure you can use, but it doesn't have anything to do with role-playing. -- Robert Plamondon {turtlevax, resonex, cae780}!weitek!robert
oliver@unc.UUCP (Bill Oliver) (08/02/85)
In article <239@fear.UUCP> robert@fear.UUCP (Robert Plamondon) writes: >> >I think that the proper response to having your character's >> >personality changed is to rip the character sheet into confetti, and >> >start looking for another campaign. >> > Robert Plamondon > >In article <3081@pur-ee.UUCP>, mazina@pur-ee.UUCP (Der Kaiser) writes: >> This is outrageous silliness. You should NEVER attempt to blackmail >> a DM like that! "Don't do XXX or I'll quit!" is the statement of a MUNCHKIN! >> You can make your dipleasure known, but you shouldn't quit unless it was >> really unjustified, like out of nowhere. The proper response is to try and >> play the character as someone who has a complete change of heart, with the >> attendant soul searching, mental trauma, and partial relapses common. If you >> do it well, it can be a LOT of fun.... > >I guess most of the trouble is that I haven't played D&D in a long >time, having switched to other game systems that make realistic game >action and characterization fairly easy. I've gotten into the habit >of developing my characters carefully; putting a lot of time and care >into them. > >In such circumstances, a GM who dictates that my character undergo a >personality change is being cruel. He's *KILLING* my old character, >and expects me to play a monster inside my old character's skin -- >and *LIKE* it! > > > > Robert Plamondon > {turtlevax, resonex, cae780}!weitek!robert A few years ago, I played under a DM who had a very good way with this. Basically, if a character was too strong or was inappropriate for a campaign, he would force a drastic change. The player then would either play the changed character, or opt to roll up another one. It was generally understood that this was a mechism for restoring game balance. For instance, I played a m-u/cleric who out survived the rest of the group for about two generations of characters, and ended up an 6/7 character hanging out with a bunch of third and fourth level characters. I was put in a situation where I lost, through magtical means and the loss of an imp familiar, all of my magical abilities, and ended up a cleric only. This was in contrast to players the DM was basically trying to discourage from playing at all. These folks just kept dying and dying, and dying. Thus, the DM was essentially giving the player the option of `toning` down the character he had developed to match the current group level, as opposed to rolling up a completely new character and losing all the background, development, etc. of the old character. Of course, this DM mostly toned down abilities and levels this way, but didn`t make us change alignment. Bill Oliver
long@oliveb.UUCP (Dave Long) (08/04/85)
In article <239@fear.UUCP> robert@fear.UUCP (Robert Plamondon) writes: | I guess most of the trouble is that I haven't played D&D in a long | time, having switched to other game systems that make realistic game | action and characterization fairly easy. I've gotten into the habit | of developing my characters carefully; putting a lot of time and care | into them. | | In such circumstances, a GM who dictates that my character undergo a | personality change is being cruel. He's *KILLING* my old character, | and expects me to play a monster inside my old character's skin -- | and *LIKE* it! :-):-):-) Perhaps you should try playing PARANOIA. It that game it does *not* pay to get too attached to your characters. |-:|-:|-: I too like characterizing, but my response to playing a monster inside of my old character is to spend some more time and care in making a character out of that monster. If you just think of the monster as a new character to develop and you like character development as much as I do, you may find yourself enjoy- ing personality changes. Dave Long PARANOIA is produced by West End Games. -- {hplabs,fortune,idi,ihnp4,tolerant,allegra,tymix}!oliveb!long