[net.games.frp] Tempting Choices.

mjcarmody@watmath.UUCP (Mike Carmody) (07/17/85)

>I think I know what the GM was getting at, though.  In his case, I might
>have instead offered the character a choice:  you can either go to Evil
>and be ONE LEVEL HIGHER or stay the level and alignment you are.  I've
>had a lot of fun with offering people tempting choices.  Much more than I'd
>get from NO Saving Throw spells or You Can't Take It Off magic items.
>Instead I offer Rings of +3 Protection to anyone who betrayed a friend to
>death; a cloak embroidered with red drops that makes you a Vampire
>of Your Level +4 -- which randomly strikes someone (party or enemy) the
>first time on a run it sees blood, etc.  SAnd then watch the players
>squirm in agony.
>
>--Lee Gold

I love it! (Honk, Shiva still out there?)
 
In the campaigns I've run whenever an alignment change was forced
(lycanthropy, curse, etc.) the characters tend to act out of their NEW
character in trying to get corrective measures performed and get their
level(s) back (either this or commit Hari Kari in a unique way).  So all 
this alignment change did was cause a hassle for the players and DM.  

A truly (ie. role playing) evil character is
fun to have in a campaign but to get the kind of role playing
necessary the player has to actually want to be evil (the same way
as a real alignment changer would act).  This kind of motivation for
the attitude change in the actual player is the best thing I've
heard of yet, much better than saying to the player 'For the sake of
game integrity you have to play this alignment correctly'.  Here you can 
sit back and relax and watch the party get VERY nervous when strange
things start happening for no known reason.

ie. Watch the party squirm.
  
Barry Rosetti, CSG
  
"When in trouble, run and shout, jump in panic, run about"-Heinlein (sp?)

js2j@mhuxt.UUCP (sonntag) (07/18/85)

> In the campaigns I've run whenever an alignment change was forced
> (lycanthropy, curse, etc.) the characters tend to act out of their NEW
> character in trying to get corrective measures performed and get their
> level(s) back (either this or commit Hari Kari in a unique way).  So all 
> this alignment change did was cause a hassle for the players and DM.  
> 
     I've seen this problem before too, and the cause is rather simple.  
Characters whose alignments have been changed (and DMs apparently, too) 
sometimes seem to think that their character still wants to be of the old
alignment, and that the alignment 'change' which they have undergone is
merely cosmetic.  Not so!  If some powerful magic item or curse truly
changed their alignment, then the character should be quite happy in their
new alignment, truly resisting the well-intentioned efforts of their
former compatriots to change them back.  If a player is unsuited to
play a character of the new alignment, or if the character can no longer
fit into the party with the new alignment, then the DM has made a serious
mistake in forcing the change.  Under no circumstances, however, should
the DM allow the newly evil character, for example, to rush into a good
church to try and switch back.   
-- 
Jeff Sonntag
ihnp4!mhuxt!js2j
   "Well I've been burned before, and I know the score,
    so you won't hear me complain.
    Are you willing to risk it all, or is your love in vain?"-Dylan

slb@drutx.UUCP (Sue Brezden) (07/18/85)

>>I've had a lot of fun with offering people tempting choices. 
>>--Lee Gold
 
>This kind of motivation for
>the attitude change in the actual player is the best thing I've
>heard of yet,

Sounds great.  I think this could be applied with great force and 
frequency to clerics.  After all, a rival god would not necessarily
want to squash the clerics of his/her heavenly enemy.  It would be
so much more satisfying to win them over, especially if they are
fairly high level.  Surely gods can behave intelligently and offer
bribes--perhaps in the form of levels, additional spells, a hotline
prayer ability once a week, or some such.
  
>I love it! (Honk, Shiva still out there?)
>  Barry Rosetti, CSG
  
Shiva is ALWAYS out there.
-- 

                                     Sue Brezden
                                     
Real World: Room 1B17                Net World: ihnp4!drutx!slb
            AT&T Information Systems
            11900 North Pecos
            Westminster, Co. 80234
            (303)538-3829 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
        Your god may be dead, but mine aren't.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

gamma@ih1ap.UUCP (tontille) (07/19/85)

[]
	I recently ran a scenario where one of my players discovered
an item changing him to LG. His outlook on life was so drastically
altered, that he is now tricking his traveling companions to employ
the item, so that everyone can experience the joy of 'New Life'.

		Key-Man (and the Masters of Technology).
		

robert@fear.UUCP (Robert Plamondon) (07/23/85)

In article <1016@mhuxt.UUCP>, js2j@mhuxt.UUCP (sonntag) writes:
> > In the campaigns I've run whenever an alignment change was forced
> > (lycanthropy, curse, etc.) the characters tend to act out of their NEW
> > character in trying to get corrective measures performed and get their
> > level(s) back (either this or commit Hari Kari in a unique way).  So all 
> > this alignment change did was cause a hassle for the players and DM.  
> > 
>      I've seen this problem before too, and the cause is rather simple.  
> Characters whose alignments have been changed (and DMs apparently, too) 
> sometimes seem to think that their character still wants to be of the old
> alignment, and that the alignment 'change' which they have undergone is
> merely cosmetic.
> 	-- Jeff Sonntag

The problem with alignment change is that the GM is (in effect)
telling you to throw away your character and start a new character --
and play it *HIS* way.  This breaks the cardinal rule of Game
Mastering: "Don't mess with other people's characterization."  It's
obnoxious and destructive.

I think that the proper response to having your character's
personality changed is to rip the character sheet into confetti, and
start looking for another campaign.

(If you tell the GM this before you start play, he's unlikely to do it
to you.)

-- 

						"Quid me anxius sum?"
						    -- E. Alfredus Numanus
		Robert Plamondon
		{turtlevax, resonex, cae780}!weitek!robert

barryg@sdcrdcf.UUCP (Lee Gold) (07/25/85)

Most of the successful Alignment Changes I've heard of were to confirm
true alignment.  Like the "Paladin" who'd just finished torturing the
Neutral Orc Princess to find where her father kept his money.  That was
after backstabbing two of his party members.

The GM had a party of Trolls trot up, salute, and say, "Sir, we admire your
greatly.  Why not change to Evil so you can head our command and really
give this dungeon a going over."  He left with them.

--Lee Gold

mazina@pur-ee.UUCP (Der Kaiser) (07/28/85)

( I LOVE baiting the NSA!)

>First rule of Dungeon
>Mastering: "Don't mess with other people's characterization."  It's
>obnoxious and destructive.
>
>I think that the proper response to having your character's
>personality changed is to rip the character sheet into confetti, and
>start looking for another campaign.
>
>(If you tell the GM this before you start play, he's unlikely to do it
>to you.)
>		Robert Plamondon


	This is outrageous silliness. You should NEVER attempt to blackmail
a DM like that! "Don't do XXX or I'll quit!" is the statement of a MUNCHKIN!
You can make your dipleasure known, but you shouldn't quit unless it was 
really unjustified, like out of nowhere. The proper response is to try and
play the character as someone who has a complete change of heart, with the
attendant soul searching, mental trauma, and partial relapses common. If you
do it well, it can be a LOT of fun....

mff@wuphys.UUCP (Swamp Thing) (07/29/85)

In article <229@fear.UUCP> robert@fear.UUCP (Robert Plamondon) writes:
>The problem with alignment change is that the GM is (in effect)
>telling you to throw away your character and start a new character --
>and play it *HIS* way.  This breaks the cardinal rule of Game
>Mastering: "Don't mess with other people's characterization."  It's
>obnoxious and destructive.
>
>I think that the proper response to having your character's
>personality changed is to rip the character sheet into confetti, and
>start looking for another campaign.
>
>		Robert Plamondon
>		{turtlevax, resonex, cae780}!weitek!robert

I have to strongly disagree with all of this.  There's nothing more challenging
to me as a player than to have to switch "personalities" in midstream.  All of
a sudden, you have this irresistable urge to kill your party members.  What
could be more fun?  From your comments above, how would you handle being
charmed by someone of an opposing alignment?  Even though this is ussually
temporary, the effect is pretty much the same.


						Mark F. Flynn
						Department of Physics
						Washington University
						St. Louis, MO  63130
						ihnp4!wuphys!mff

"There is no dark side of the moon, really.
 Matter of fact, it's all dark."

				P. Floyd

robert@fear.UUCP (Robert Plamondon) (07/30/85)

> >First rule of Dungeon
> >Mastering: "Don't mess with other people's characterization."  It's
> >obnoxious and destructive.
> >
> >I think that the proper response to having your character's
> >personality changed is to rip the character sheet into confetti, and
> >start looking for another campaign.
> >
> >(If you tell the GM this before you start play, he's unlikely to do it
> >to you.)
> >		Robert Plamondon

In article <3081@pur-ee.UUCP>, mazina@pur-ee.UUCP (Der Kaiser) writes:
> 	This is outrageous silliness. You should NEVER attempt to blackmail
> a DM like that! "Don't do XXX or I'll quit!" is the statement of a MUNCHKIN!
> You can make your dipleasure known, but you shouldn't quit unless it was 
> really unjustified, like out of nowhere. The proper response is to try and
> play the character as someone who has a complete change of heart, with the
> attendant soul searching, mental trauma, and partial relapses common. If you
> do it well, it can be a LOT of fun....

I guess most of the trouble is that I haven't played D&D in a long
time, having switched to other game systems that make realistic game
action and characterization fairly easy.  I've gotten into the habit
of developing my characters carefully; putting a lot of time and care
into them.

In such circumstances, a GM who dictates that my character undergo a
personality change is being cruel.  He's *KILLING* my old character,
and expects me to play a monster inside my old character's skin --
and *LIKE* it!

Of course, this isn't a problem for most players.  For them,
alignment is something you write on your character sheet, that has
effects on who you kill and what magic treasure you can use, but it
doesn't have anything to do with role-playing.
-- 


		Robert Plamondon
		{turtlevax, resonex, cae780}!weitek!robert

oliver@unc.UUCP (Bill Oliver) (08/02/85)

In article <239@fear.UUCP> robert@fear.UUCP (Robert Plamondon) writes:
>> >I think that the proper response to having your character's
>> >personality changed is to rip the character sheet into confetti, and
>> >start looking for another campaign.
>> >		Robert Plamondon
>
>In article <3081@pur-ee.UUCP>, mazina@pur-ee.UUCP (Der Kaiser) writes:
>> 	This is outrageous silliness. You should NEVER attempt to blackmail
>> a DM like that! "Don't do XXX or I'll quit!" is the statement of a MUNCHKIN!
>> You can make your dipleasure known, but you shouldn't quit unless it was 
>> really unjustified, like out of nowhere. The proper response is to try and
>> play the character as someone who has a complete change of heart, with the
>> attendant soul searching, mental trauma, and partial relapses common. If you
>> do it well, it can be a LOT of fun....
>
>I guess most of the trouble is that I haven't played D&D in a long
>time, having switched to other game systems that make realistic game
>action and characterization fairly easy.  I've gotten into the habit
>of developing my characters carefully; putting a lot of time and care
>into them.
>
>In such circumstances, a GM who dictates that my character undergo a
>personality change is being cruel.  He's *KILLING* my old character,
>and expects me to play a monster inside my old character's skin --
>and *LIKE* it!
>
>
>
>		Robert Plamondon
>		{turtlevax, resonex, cae780}!weitek!robert

A few years ago, I played under a DM who had a very good way with this.
Basically, if a character was too strong or was inappropriate for a 
campaign, he would force a drastic change. The player then would either
play the changed character, or opt to roll up another one.  It was 
generally understood that this was a mechism for restoring game balance.
For instance, I played a m-u/cleric who out survived the rest of the
group for about two generations of characters, and ended up an
6/7 character hanging out with a bunch of third and fourth level
characters.  I was put in a situation where I lost, through magtical
means and the loss of an imp familiar, all of my magical abilities,
and ended up a cleric only.  

This was in contrast to players the DM was basically trying to
discourage from playing at all.  These folks just kept dying and
dying, and dying.


Thus, the DM was essentially giving the player the option of
`toning` down the character he had developed to match the 
current group level, as opposed to rolling up a completely
new character and losing all the background, development,
etc. of the old character.  Of course, this DM mostly toned
down abilities and levels this way, but didn`t make us
change alignment. 

Bill Oliver
 

long@oliveb.UUCP (Dave Long) (08/04/85)

In article <239@fear.UUCP> robert@fear.UUCP (Robert Plamondon) writes:
| I guess most of the trouble is that I haven't played D&D in a long
| time, having switched to other game systems that make realistic game
| action and characterization fairly easy.  I've gotten into the habit
| of developing my characters carefully; putting a lot of time and care
| into them.
| 
| In such circumstances, a GM who dictates that my character undergo a
| personality change is being cruel.  He's *KILLING* my old character,
| and expects me to play a monster inside my old character's skin --
| and *LIKE* it!

:-):-):-)
    Perhaps you should try playing PARANOIA.  It that game it does *not* pay
to get too attached to your characters.
|-:|-:|-:
    I too like characterizing, but my response to playing a monster inside of
my old character is to spend some more time and care in making a character out
of that monster.  If you just think of the monster as a new character to develop
and you like character development as much as I do, you may find yourself enjoy-
ing personality changes.
							Dave Long
PARANOIA is produced by West End Games.
-- 
{hplabs,fortune,idi,ihnp4,tolerant,allegra,tymix}!oliveb!long