bobh@pedsgd.UUCP (Bob Halloran) (09/16/85)
Did anyone see the 60 Minutes item on D & D this past Sunday(9/15)?
I thought the mother came off rather badly; in one segment she's
saying 'no, my son didn't have any psychological problems'; in
the next, her daughter's saying her brother threatened to kill
her if she told the folks he played, and she apparently took him
seriously. Uh-huh, Mrs. Whatever, he's perfectly normal.
I'm afraid I tend to agree with EGG's comments; the parents are
looking for something external to peg their child's death on,
and D & D seems to be a easy target. The dozen-odd suicides
with a 'connection' to the game over the last ?? years is a
VERY small percentage; has anyone checked on how many teen suicides
were due to say, heavy metal rock? (Save the flames, music fans;
I'm trying to find something commonly and LEGALLY available to
adolescents that also currently 'enjoys' bad press.)
If the 'role-playing' aspects are what bothers the parents,
what about the He-Man, GI Joe, and (Ghu help us) Rambo dolls
(okay, 'figures'), that swamp the shelves? It's okay to pretend
to be a bare-chested steroid-soaked commie-killer, but not to
engage in a fantasy game where the targets are generally more
imaginary? Sorry folks, I can't accept that one is allowable and
the other isn't.
The two boys in the story who engaged in '48-hour gaming sessions';
WHERE THE &^%$#&^%$# were the PARENTS?!?!? If there's no
parental involvement to keep the boys in bounds, is it surprising
they get in trouble? If the problem wasn't D & D, something
else would have no doubt taken its place.
About the 'sudden' disconnection of D & D from the case by the
local police, without any particular reason, since autopsy reports
are generally confidential, it is entirely possible that there
were 'other' influences involved. In the recent case here in
NJ where D & D was implicated, the victim's acquaintances generally
said that they thought it was more likely drugs than D & D.
Mrs. Whatshername really wouldn't have any rights to an autopsy
report, now would she? Would CBS News?
Anyone have the address for 60 Minutes? I think a few letters
are in order.
Bob Halloran
Sr MTS, Perkin-Elmer DSG
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Disclaimer: My opinions are my own.
Quote: "History is made at night. Character is what you are in the Dark."scott@hou2g.UUCP (Racer X) (09/16/85)
I caught the last 10 minutes or so of that segment.
My reactions were also along the lines of EGG--especially
after the mother said her son had no problems, but
classmates and teachers(?) were paraphrased as saying
he was an "outsider" in school, not getting along with
the majority of students, etc.
The other thing I noticed in some of the suicide "anecdotes":
They kept talking about how so-and-so shot his brother, then
himself. One child was said to have been attempting astral
travel ("by the rules in the book"), surrounding himself with
material components and then putting a hole in his head..??...
THERE ARE NO FRIGGIN' GUNS IN THE DAMN GAME! NOBODY SEEMED TO
CATCH ON TO THAT!
Oh, well, some people will believe anything...
Scott J. Berryoliver@unc.UUCP (Bill Oliver) (09/20/85)
In article <271@pedsgd.UUCP> bobh@pedsgd.UUCP (Bob Halloran) writes: > >About the 'sudden' disconnection of D & D from the case by the >local police, without any particular reason, since autopsy reports >are generally confidential, it is entirely possible that there >were 'other' influences involved. In the recent case here in >NJ where D & D was implicated, the victim's acquaintances generally >said that they thought it was more likely drugs than D & D. >Mrs. Whatshername really wouldn't have any rights to an autopsy >report, now would she? Would CBS News? > > > Bob Halloran As a point of information, in most (though not all) jurisdictions autopsies performed by a medical examiner`s office are, in fact, public record. Bill Oliver Assistant Chief Medical Examiner State of North Carolina
mccolm@ucla-cs.UUCP (09/20/85)
<my mail-muncher can beat up your mail-muncher...>
After seeing the 60-minutes report, I noticed a few details. First, there
seem to be a lot of depressed kids whose parents have guns. Not to kick the
American Way or anything, but do these parents leave their guns out for the
kids to use, or what?
Also, the situation in which the teenager plays D&D, threatens his sister into
not mentioning the game to the parents, and is so careful never to let the
parents find out, and all the while the parents have never HEARD of the game
is to me highly implausible. Teenagers aren't nearly this hyperbolic. They
only hide what they know the parents think is wrong. Clearly, either the
parents knew of and disapproved of the game, or they disapproved of the son's
fellow players, or they disapproved of all his hobbies in general, or they
were trying to instill *certain* activities to the exclusion of all others,
or there was ABSOLUTELY NO rapport or trust between the parents and son to
begin with. Or, quite possibly, the players did *something else* at the game
(like drugs) that they knew parents wouldn't like.
E. Gary Gygax was up to his usual form. On camera, he looked disoriented,
and he sounded like he was trying desperately to come up with a convincing
lie. If we don't want the game banned, we'll have to keep this guy off
camera. He reeks of dishonesty. Also, while what he said was likely true,
he said it in a manner so clearly offensive that he could not help but to
galvanize popular opinion against him. This guy could recite the Lord's
Prayer and be offensive.
Lastly, let us suppose that D&D and teenage suicide are *entirely*
independent. Question: knowing how many D&D players there are, and how
many of these have committed suicide, how many teenagers will have committed
suicide (players or not) in the same period?
Assumptions:
The US has about 50 million teenagers
There are 4 million FRPers in the US, 3/4 of whom are teenagers
There were 30 D&D-related suicides in the last ten years
Answer: 50 teenage suicides a year. Clearly ridiculous. Even if only 1 in
1000 suicides among D&D players is connected to the game, (a huge fudge
factor including limited information, disbelieving police, limited publicity,
and all sorts of other factors to prevent the association) the result is
only 50,000. So there seems little grounds to the claim that D&D increases
the suicide rate.
Keep in mind that the average teenage D&D player is (in my experience) male,
bright, imaginative, quick-witted, disillusioned with parents and school, and
misanthropic to some degree or other. These people are a high-risk group for
suicide. Yet if among this group, the rate is *below* the national average,
this leads directly to one conclusion: Fantasy role-playing reduces the
suicide rate among teenagers.
This is a significant statement, if borne out by evidence.
--fini--
Eric McColm
UCLA (oo' - kluh) Funny Farm for the Criminally Harmless
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Quotes on the Nature of Existence:
"To be, or not to be..." -Hamlet (Wm. Shakespeare)
"I think, therefore I am." -R. Descartes
"<Gleep!>" -Gleep (Robt. Asprin)tim@k.cs.cmu.edu.ARPA (Tim Maroney) (09/20/85)
You realize, of course, that resistance is futile. Any pastime or fad that is popular among the young will automatically be considered evil by many parents. Can anyone name just one pastime that has not been blamed for "the sorry state of today's youth"? Pop crooners were even blamed in the forties and fifties, and even such a totally innocent fad as the hula hoop was considered lascivious. I don't know why this is; either adults hate seeing young people having fun because they do it better than the adults can, or any source of fun provides a convenient scapegoat for the universally perceived rottenness of the young; but in any case you might as well fight the law of inverse squares as oppose this. -=- Tim Maroney, Carnegie-Mellon University, Networking ARPA: Tim.Maroney@CMU-CS-K uucp: seismo!cmu-cs-k!tim CompuServe: 74176,1360 audio: shout "Hey, Tim!"
granvold@tymix.UUCP (Tom Granvold) (09/23/85)
-
I completly agree with the commonts made about the D&D segment on 60
Minutes recently. Where are the parents of the kids who are having all
these problems? Where were the parents are the kids were growing up? I
wonder what kind of family life and upbrinning these kids had. I know
one 18 year old who attempted to kill himself at least twice, he was in
a comma ffor a week from the first attempt. I also know what his family
life was like, it was far from ideal. Do did he attempt sucide because
he played D&D (which he did) or was it his family life? I say that it was
not D&D. It is all too easy for parents to blame D&D, rock & roll or
any number of things for their own mistakes. This has happened before
and will happen again.
With D&D getting all this attention, I wonder if the D&D critics
know of all the other games that exist? My favorite is RuneQuest.
Tom Granvold
ucbvax!allegra!oliveb!tymix!granvoldjims@hcrvax.UUCP (Jim Sullivan) (09/26/85)
All this talk about D&D, teenage suicide, and fundamentalists brings to mind a book I read over the summer (well over two days, over the summer :-). The book is called _The_Dungeon_Master, by William Dear, and is about the disappearance of one James Dallas Eggert (could have spelt that wrong). JDE, you may remember, was the University of Michigan student who went missing back in the late '70's. He was an avid AD&D player, and many people blamed AD&D for his disappearance. William Dear was a private investigator hired to find young Dallas. I'm sure we all remember the details, since JDE has gone down into the annals of D&D lore. But the book (which TSR would have no part of), shows that although JDE played D&D, it was not a factor in his disappearance. JDE was depressed, a genius without someone to love, and was also heavily into drugs. He originally disappeared to kill himself, failed, and then was 'rescued' by some gay friends (refered to in the book as a chicken hawk) Dear eventually finds JDE (read the book, or mail me if you what to know), although a year or so later, Dallas tries to kill himself again, and this time succedes. I mention all this because not enough people know the real story. JDE is a legend in D&D, a person who actually played the game, or so we thought. When he disappeared, the D&D angle was heavily boosted, and everyone thought the JDE disappeared due to D&D. According to the book, not so. This is the best example of D&D taking the fall when parents, teachers, and friends fail. Jim Sullivan p.s. anyone out there that actually played in the tunnels beneath UofM ? care to tell us about those games ? - jrs
js2j@mhuxt.UUCP (sonntag) (09/30/85)
> > p.s. anyone out there that actually played in the tunnels beneath > UofM ? care to tell us about those games ? - jrs Presuming that when you say 'actually played in the tunnels', you don't mean that they took their books, dice, pencils, lights, pillows, munchies, mapping board, etc. into the tunnels to play an frp game, I'll assume you mean that they dressed up, wandered around darkened tunnels, etc. But if they did that, then they weren't playing a fantasy role- playing game, were they? The 'F' stands for *fantasy* - the game is all in the players' heads. In a lot of the cases of teen suicide which have been published, it sounds as though the people involved were playing a *real* role playing game, rather than an frp game. Some people (especially 60 minutes reporters) seem to have an awfully difficult time discerning the line between fantasy and reality. -- Jeff Sonntag ihnp4!mhuxt!js2j Silly quote: "There are a few off-the-wall extremists, who are shunned by us moderates." - Don Black
jims@hcrvax.UUCP (Jim Sullivan) (10/03/85)
>> i ask: >> >> p.s. anyone out there that actually played in the tunnels beneath >> UofM ? care to tell us about those games ? - jrs > > Presuming that when you say 'actually played in the tunnels', you >don't mean that they took their books, dice, pencils, lights, pillows, >munchies, mapping board, etc. into the tunnels to play an frp game, I'll >assume you mean that they dressed up, wandered around darkened tunnels, >etc. But if they did that, then they weren't playing a fantasy role- >playing game, were they? The 'F' stands for *fantasy* - the game is all >in the players' heads. In a lot of the cases of teen suicide which have >been published, it sounds as though the people involved were playing a >*real* role playing game, rather than an frp game. > Some people (especially 60 minutes reporters) seem to have an >awfully difficult time discerning the line between fantasy and reality. >-- >Jeff Sonntag >ihnp4!mhuxt!js2j I a bit confused. Dressing up, pretending to be a magic user; wandering through `modern' tunnels, pretending they are dungeons, etc. is not fantasy ? It's all fantasy, just with props to strengthen the illusion. Even these Rambo characters that seems to be infesting the cities these days, dressing up, and carrying plastic rifles are fantasizing. I agree that there must be a line between `real' and `fantasy'. Part of the problem with the teenage suicides and FRP's is that the real world does not offer enough for the kids, so they grasp the fantasy world, to make it real....and then we hear about it on 60 minutes and in the National Enquirer (I want to know). Jim Sullivan