slb@drutx.UUCP (Sue Brezden) (10/03/85)
The last posting I did reminded me of something that has been
bothering me, and that might make some kind of discussion on
the net.
It concerns movement. The way we've been treating movement goes
like this:
Before you are actually involved in combat (i.e. charging in
to get your first blow), you can move your movement rate in
feet per segment, taking initiative into account. For instance,
an unamored magic user charging into battle (assuming he really
wants to do something stupid like that) rolls a 4 initiative.
He can move 12' on 4, 3, 2, 1--for a total of 48'. If he still
hasn't reached his goal, he can continue moving from his initiative
on the next round. Once he is in battle, it is assumed that he
can only move 12' per round, since he has to be doing other things
at that point.
I like this system because the distances seem to be within the
realm of reason, and it takes initiative into account for movement
as well as spell casting, blows, etc. However, the problem I am
having when I DM is that the fighters, unless they get really
atrocious initiative rolls, manage to get up and impale my spell-
casting NPCs before they can do much damage. Once you have someone
hitting you, and once the PCs are close in, you do a lot less damage.
I have lost some nasty NPCs much too easily.
It is true that the NPCs have the same movement possibilites, but
you can't cast while running, either.
So I'm throwing it open for discussion, flames, etc. How do you
handle movement, especially before and in combat? And even more
importantly, how do you handle spellcasting NPCs so as to inflict
appropriate pain and suffering? Is this just something I'll have to
learn by trial and error, or are there some good rules of thumb that
will help?
Thanks,
--
Sue Brezden
Real World: Room 1B17 Net World: ihnp4!drutx!slb
AT&T Information Systems
11900 North Pecos
Westminster, Co. 80234
(303)538-3829
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Your god may be dead, but mine aren't.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~js2j@mhuxt.UUCP (sonntag) (10/03/85)
> It concerns movement. The way we've been treating movement goes > like this: > Before you are actually involved in combat (i.e. charging in > to get your first blow), you can move your movement rate in > feet per segment, taking initiative into account. For instance, > an unamored magic user charging into battle (assuming he really > wants to do something stupid like that) rolls a 4 initiative. > He can move 12' on 4, 3, 2, 1--for a total of 48'. If he still > hasn't reached his goal, he can continue moving from his initiative > on the next round. Once he is in battle, it is assumed that he > can only move 12' per round, since he has to be doing other things > at that point. Several comments: 1.) It looks as though a player gets his entire movement only if he rolls a good initiative. Initiative is supposed to govern who acts first, *not* whether or not you get your whole action or not. 2.) Only 12'/rnd movement during melee!? So if I decide to run past the enemy's front line and attack their spell casters who happen to be 60 feet behind the enemy fighters, the spell casters have five rounds (minutes) to throw spells at me while I charge (amble) towards them? Under this system, you should have no problem with your spell casters dying if you just decentralize the melee. Of course, a movement rate of 12'/minute translates to about 1/7 miles/hour. Even the traditional movement rate of 120'/minute seems amazingly slow, but to reduce it further by an entire order of magnitude!? 3.) If you want to impose a movement penalty for doing other actions, it's not that hard to do reasonably. Just impose standard penalties, like: 50% movement + attacking = 1 rnd 25% movement + 2 arrows = 1 rnd 25% movement + 1 V,S,M spell = 1 rnd It sounds like you're using a much simpler rule: 10% movement + any other action = 1 rnd Which is bound to upset the game balance. > > I like this system because the distances seem to be within the > realm of reason, and it takes initiative into account for movement > as well as spell casting, blows, etc. However, the problem I am > having when I DM is that the fighters, unless they get really > atrocious initiative rolls, manage to get up and impale my spell- > casting NPCs before they can do much damage. Once you have someone > hitting you, and once the PCs are close in, you do a lot less damage. > I have lost some nasty NPCs much too easily. Spell casting NPC's should be smart enough to have some fighting type NPC's along. How much trouble to you think the PC's would have if the medium level MU's went out without fighters or clerics? Also, some monsters have spell-like abilities, which a DM can easily rule as *abilities* instead of *spells*, and allow them to do them even while PC's beat on them. If you're running a monster or NPC with superior movement abilities than the PC's, *use* them! A party which can trash a dragon which decides to fight them on the ground may easily be defeated by the same dragon which makes a few strafing runs first. Similarly, fighters on heavy warhorses can be attacked with long range spells by MUs on light warhorses with relative impunity (although some bows have quite a lot of range. At the very least, the MUs may decide when they've had enough and run away.) And as a last resort, if your party is still trashing your monsters and NPCs, then you're not generating *enough* of them. > > It is true that the NPCs have the same movement possibilites, but > you can't cast while running, either. > > So I'm throwing it open for discussion, flames, etc. How do you > handle movement, especially before and in combat? And even more > importantly, how do you handle spellcasting NPCs so as to inflict > appropriate pain and suffering? Is this just something I'll have to > learn by trial and error, or are there some good rules of thumb that > will help? > > Thanks, > > > > -- > > Sue Brezden > > Real World: Room 1B17 Net World: ihnp4!drutx!slb > AT&T Information Systems > 11900 North Pecos > Westminster, Co. 80234 > (303)538-3829 > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Your god may be dead, but mine aren't. > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ *** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR MESSAGE *** -- Jeff Sonntag ihnp4!mhuxt!js2j Silly quote: "There are a few off-the-wall extremists, who are shunned by us moderates." - Don Black
slb@drutx.UUCP (Sue Brezden) (10/04/85)
>js2j@mhuxt.UUCP (sonntag) writes: >1.) It looks as though a player gets his entire movement only if he > rolls a good initiative. Initiative is supposed to govern who > acts first, *not* whether or not you get your whole action or not. > However, you can only *start* running on your initiative. It seems logical to me that a person who acts first during a round will be able to run further, since she will have gotten a fast start. You should not move a full 120' in a round if you are sitting around with your mouth open or whatever until the 6th segment of that round. In the case of running, the person who acts first does get more of their whole action. It is probably more realistic to count the initiative only on the first round that you decide to run--giving you the whole 10 segments of running time on the following rounds. >2.) Only 12'/rnd movement during melee!? So if I decide to run past > the enemy's front line and attack their spell casters who happen to > be 60 feet behind the enemy fighters, the spell casters have five > rounds (minutes) to throw spells at me while I charge (amble) towards > them? Under this system, you should have no problem with your > spell casters dying if you just decentralize the melee. Of course, > a movement rate of 12'/minute translates to about 1/7 miles/hour. > Even the traditional movement rate of 120'/minute seems amazingly > slow, but to reduce it further by an entire order of magnitude!? > But if you decide to run past the enemies front line you are NOT in melee yet. I guess I didn't make myself clear. You are not in melee until you start actually fighting. That is the point at which you have other stuff to do besides move. If you have a good dex adjustment to your initiative rolls, and roll well, it is possible to be moving in the first segment of the round (although unlikely). This will give you the whole 120'/rnd. Of course you might have no dex adjustment, and roll a 1 too. (In which case, you probably sat there trying to decide what to do just a little too long. The mage crispy-critters you with his fireball!) If my dex adjustment + initiative >= 5, then I will get to those spell casters who are 60 feet back within the first round. And I could do it faster--reaching them before the round ends. (We are of course still ignoring armor.) They may get only one spell, if that, before I am there. If they roll low initiative and/or have a long casting time spell, then I may beat them. If I beat them enough, I may be able to hit them. Sorry I didn't make myself clear. Am I clear now? (She says, attempting to see if the invisibility spell worked.:-) -- Sue Brezden Real World: Room 1B17 Net World: ihnp4!drutx!slb AT&T Information Systems 11900 North Pecos Westminster, Co. 80234 (303)538-3829 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Your god may be dead, but mine aren't. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
jagardner@watmath.UUCP (Jim Gardner) (10/05/85)
In article <117@drutx.UUCP> slb@drutx.UUCP (Sue Brezden) writes: >How do you >handle movement, especially before and in combat? I don't really know how to fit things into a D&D context, because I haven't enough experience with the game to make a balanced suggestion. However, you might get some ideas from the way things are done in other games, so I'll describe the way it works in Fantasy Hero. Combat is played out in Turns that take about 12-seconds game time. Each second is called a segment, numbered Segment 1, 2...12. Players and NPCs and monsters are all allowed a number of actions during a Turn. This number is called their SPEED, and it is more or less based on DEX. A SPEED 3 character (average fighter) would be allowed 3 actions, coming in segments 4, 8, and 12. Monsters often have high speeds, so that the D&D claw-claw-bite sort of attack would be represented by giving the monster a speed like 6 or more (6 is turns out to be very fast, 8 is gross, and 12 is mind-boggling). In one action phase, you can choose to move, to attack, or to move and attack. (Also many other actions that we won't worry about). For a full move, you get a standard 12 meters of running; if you move then attack, you get 6 meters. If you use this sort of running, you are assumed to be moving with some caution: weaving, staying low, keeping your eyes open, etc. This means that you are as hard to hit while running as you would be in any other circumstance. You can also run in a "non-combat" way. This lets you run up to 24 meters in your phase, twice the normal maximum. However, you cannot run non-combat and attack. In addition, you lose any defensive bonus you might have for battle skill and DEX; you get a small bonus for running speed, but you are presumed to be relatively easy to hit because you are running undefensively in a straight line. Maybe the difference between combat and non-combat running may help solve your problem. It also occurs to me that your battle may be made easier if you consider a D&D round to be considerably shorter than the minute it's supposed to be...after all, if it takes 20 or 30 seconds for MU's to prepare a spell, it's no wonder that some fighter can run in and slit their throats first. An unencumbered person could sprint almost a quarter mile in that time. Admittedly, fighters are encumbered in most instances, but thieves aren't. Of course, this is a drastic change and may be more trouble to you than it's worth. Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo
cc100jr@gitpyr.UUCP (Joel M. Rives) (10/09/85)
I must agree wholeheartedly to the suggestion to shorten the D&D
melee round. Before I abandoned AD&D (in favor of Runequest and RoleMaster),
my response to the various discrepant and/or unworkable rules was to alter
them - after much debate amoungst those who's opinions in the matter I value.
This, of course, is exactly what is suggestd in the rulebooks! From a realistic
point of view, this provides problems of it's own... namely: divergence between
various groups. Such divergence makes traveling from one campaign to another
more and more difficult and - for those who like conferencing - interaction
with players from around the globe a bit trying.
Forgive me, for I have digressed again!!!
Anyway, as I was saying, one rule in AD&D which I found truly beneficial
to alter was the melee round time/space relationship. This however, has some
far reaching ramifications and must not be approached lightly. In my campaign,
the melee round was reduced to 12 seconds (the same as it is in Champions,
Fantasy Heros and Runequest). Movement was calculated for each character in
terms of meters/second and the twelve segments of the round were ticked off
in succession. In order for this to work, it was necissary to recalculate
the amount of time it took to perform certain actions. In the initial round
of melee, each character rolled 1D6 and subtracted (or added) their DEX
attack/reaction adjustment to arrive at a varying delay period much like
an initiative roll. After that, a character would expend segments dependant
upon the action taken.
Let me give you a few examples of time factors for various actions.
In order for a fighter to run up to a mage and strike him (assuming they are
some distance apart), the fighter must first expend 3 segments to initiate
the run (building up steam so to speak), after which - given that the fighter
has been determined to have a movement factor of... say 4 meters/second - the
player can then move the character two - 2 meter hexes (this is the scale
we found most useful) for every segment of the game. Furthermore, let us
assume the mage has decided to cast a lightning bolt at the onrushing fighter.
In the Players Handbook, it is stated that a lightning bolt requires 3 segments
of casting time. From the original time scale, this would mean 18 seconds. If
you wish to strongly emphasise a magic-poor world, one where magic power is
hard to come by and difficult to practice (thus generally discouraging all
but the most determined player from following the path of wizardry), you can
certainly maintain the casting times for AD&D spells as they are now. On the
other hand, you could choose to translate casting time directly, segment-for-
segment. In the later case, a lightning bolt would require only 3 seconds to
cast and the mage would give the fighter quite a shock before the fighter
was able to react. A better option for the fighter in this instance would be
to fire an arrow (or throw a knife to disrupt the spell). You might optionally
choose to have no delay period for movement, in which case, the lightning
bolt would have struck the fighter after three seconds of movement at 2 hexes
per second. We also used weapon speed factors to determine when a weapon would
strike - altered by the attack/reaction adjustment derived from DEX. So, if the
fighter with a DEX of 14 (no bonus) attacked with a short sword (weapon speed
factor of 4 I think... don't have the books here at my office); then the attack
would arrive on the fourth second. Thus, even if the fighter were standing
right next to the mage, the fighter would still get zapped !!!
The two methods of determining spell casting time listed above are the
extremes as far as I am concerned. The actual method we used was closer to
the later method. Anyway, It is easy to see how altering the time factor in
D&D requires a great deal of game balance forethought. I recommend, for those
who may be considering such a change, that they read through the rules for
Runequest or Fantasy Heros. What's more, I fully recommend that you play
thes other games, if you haven't already.
skippin' o'er th' time lines ag'in,
Whisper Spirit
{gatech}!gitpyr!cc100jr