jj@alice.UUCP (08/22/85)
I've encountered quite a few people in New Jersey, including a group that met in the same meeting room immediately after we met, who claimed that D&D (trademark TSR Inc, Geneva Wisconsin) was the "work of the devil". These people said that some minister or other had told them so, and that was that. We invited them to watch a game, they declined, saying they didn't need to. Rather obviously, I think the minister was concerned with any activity that encourages the participants to continually check their premises and assumptions. :-) We play Rolemaster (Trademark Iron Crown Enterprises) now, (and like the system a lot more, despite those few on the net who told me what an anus I was for liking Rolemaster instead of their pet system...) so I suppose our eternal souls are safe now. :-) Seriously, those making such claims, at least in the NJ area, don't know of the fact that D&D(Tm, see above) isn't all there is, and tend to lump all FRP under the same banner. I wonder how they'd react to Gamma World? -- SUPPORT SECULAR TEDDY-BEAR-ISM. "You, who are on the road, must have a code that you can live by." (ihnp4/allegra)!alice!jj
don@umd5.UUCP (08/26/85)
In article <4191@alice.UUCP> jj@alice.UUCP writes: >Seriously, those making such claims, at least in the NJ area, >don't know of the fact that D&D(Tm, see above) isn't all there is, and tend >to lump all FRP under the same banner. I wonder how they'd >react to Gamma World? > Gamma World? Sheesh.. That's nothing ! Try Call of Cthulhu - "Look, Hastur just ate your uncle" ... -- --==---==---==-- ___________ _____ ---- _____ \ //---- IDIC ----- _\______//_ ---- ---------- ARPA: don@umd5.ARPA BITNET: don%umd5@umd2 SPOKEN: Chris Sylvain UUCP: {seismo,rlgvax,allegra,brl-bmd,nrl-css}!umcp-cs!cvl!umd5!don
mjcarmody@watmath.UUCP (Mike Carmody) (08/27/85)
In article <723@umd5.UUCP> don@umd5.UUCP (Don Preuss) writes: >>Seriously, those making such claims, at least in the NJ area, >>don't know of the fact that D&D(Tm, see above) isn't all there is, and tend >>to lump all FRP under the same banner. I wonder how they'd >>react to Gamma World? >> > >Gamma World? Sheesh.. That's nothing ! >Try Call of Cthulhu - "Look, Hastur just ate your uncle" ... > >-- This brings up a reasonable point. To get philosophical, maybe the fundamentalists (and others) see D&D as such a threat to their narrow view of life (in that it deals with scores of dieties, imagination, and ingenuity) that they have to react in some way to deal with it. The constant headache of these people cutting us down without knowing what they're talking about should probably dealt with in the way they preach (but don't practice). ie. Understand that they're insecure SOB's (ie. understanding). Barry Rosetti, {??}!watdcsu!watmath!mjcarmody ----- "When in trouble, scream and shout, run in panic, jump about" - Heinlein
mazina@pur-ee.UUCP (Der Kaiser) (08/28/85)
In article <723@umd5.UUCP> don@umd5.UUCP (Don Preuss) writes: >In article <4191@alice.UUCP> jj@alice.UUCP writes: >>Seriously, those making such claims, at least in the NJ area, >>don't know of the fact that D&D(Tm, see above) isn't all there is, and tend >>to lump all FRP under the same banner. I wonder how they'd >>react to Gamma World? >> > >Gamma World? Sheesh.. That's nothing ! >Try Call of Cthulhu - "Look, Hastur just ate your uncle" ... > > ARPA: don@umd5.ARPA BITNET: don%umd5@umd2 >SPOKEN: Chris Sylvain > UUCP: {seismo,rlgvax,allegra,brl-bmd,nrl-css}!umcp-cs!cvl!umd5!don Around here we just call that game 'Insanity Quest' Thomas Ruschak pur-ee!mazina
peter@baylor.UUCP (Peter da Silva) (08/31/85)
> Gamma World? Sheesh.. That's nothing ! > Try Call of Cthulhu - "Look, Hastur just ate your uncle" ... There was a game called the Emeral Tablet that used real magical sybolism (like, out of the Qaballah or something). Imagine what they'd say to *that*. And a character of mine did make a deal with Satan once. Boy, was he ever sorry. -- Peter (Made in Australia) da Silva UUCP: ...!shell!neuro1!{hyd-ptd,baylor,datafac}!peter MCI: PDASILVA; CIS: 70216,1076
jordan@noscvax.UUCP (Martin C. Jordan) (09/04/85)
>>Try Call of Cthulhu - "Look, Hastur just ate your uncle" ... >> >>-- > This brings up a reasonable point. To get philosophical, maybe the > fundamentalists (and others) see D&D as such a threat to their narrow view > of life (in that it deals with scores of dieties, imagination, and > ingenuity) that they have to react in some way to deal with it. > The constant headache of these people cutting us down without > knowing what they're talking about should probably dealt with in > the way they preach (but don't practice). ie. Understand that > they're insecure SOB's (ie. understanding). > > Barry Rosetti, > {??}!watdcsu!watmath!mjcarmody >----- As one who enjoys FRPing as well as being one of the narrow- minded, insecure SOB's as described above, I am sick and tired of being belittled for my faith. It would appear that most who compose these tomes of invective against the (gasp!! run!!!) fundamentalists are guilty of the same lack of understanding as many well-intentioned ministers and talk-show hosts. They won't watch a D&D scenario, and many of you refuse to go to a fundamentalist church. Neither side is willing to understand the other (read understand, not wholeheartedly. believe in). Having Southern Baptist roots (worse than orcs, I know), I undestand why some have difficulty accepting anything that even hints of the occult. Lets face it, D&D (and offshoots) is not exactly a Sunday School lesson. Magic, divination, other gods, etc. have their roots in occult practices spelled out in both Old and New Testaments as being verboten (references on request). Believing as I do, one has to be careful as to where fantasy ends. The atheist has no boundaries. To him the Bible, Quran, and the Tibetan Book of the Dead are myth with some good precepts to live by. To the Christian, the Bible IS Truth. Whether you as an individual accept this position or not, is a discussion in another group. The fundamentalist Christian accepts the position that Satan and "the powers of darkness" exist. He/she must therefore treat some aspects of FRPing very carefully. Those ministers who have spurned offers watch a D&D scenario do not get off free. They also need to be informed. But, they attack the game NOT individuals or groups as adversely affecting people's lives. We Christians are concerned about the spiritual well-being of everyone. Anything that begins to threaten people spiritually becomes an object of concern. Maybe someone could devise a scenario where Jerry Fallwell, a LG Paladin, organizes and leads the forces of good to overthrow the minions of Lucifer....... Peace and understanding, Martin ***** Note: these views cannot be officially sanctioned by my employer *****
franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams) (09/10/85)
One point one can make against narrow-minded fundamentalists (a proper subset), is that generally in FRP the players are *fighting* the demons and such, not making friends with them. Of course, they are supposedly using magic to do so, so this argument can't be carried too far. The main point has to be the distinction between fantasy and reality.
rcb@rti-sel.UUCP (Random) (09/10/85)
>... We >Christians are concerned about the spiritual well-being of everyone. >Anything that begins to threaten people spiritually becomes an object >of concern. My spiritual well-being is my own business. You seem to be a calm rational person, so why do you feel that you have the need to save me from myself. A cheap shot to you perhaps, but the more rabid fundamentalists feel this way. The big thing I see about a lot of these people trying to ban this, that and the other thing is that they feel they have been assigned to save the souls of everyone they come into contact with. I find this very annoying. It's not like I haven't heard the arguments for each religion before. I have headr them many times, so why do these people feel the need to ram them down my throat one more time. Actually, I have a theory on the motivations of some of the (like Jerry Falwell) who would just love to legislate a state religion. In my opinion, a lot (not all) of these people are simply on a power trip. They could just as easily be crusading for the Earth Mother or Zeus. It is just an excuse to control peoples lives. It gives them a feeling of power. They don't ban D&D because it might pervert the children, they do it to see if they can. And when they do that, they want more power and try to ban other things (like evolution, dancing, etc.) Sorry about the flame, but this comment just set something off. -- Random Research Triangle Institute ...!mcnc!rti-sel!rcb
jordan@noscvax.UUCP (Martin C. Jordan) (09/19/85)
In article <646@mmintl.UUCP> franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams) writes: > > >One point one can make against narrow-minded fundamentalists (a proper >subset), is that generally in FRP the players are *fighting* the demons >and such, not making friends with them. Of course, they are supposedly >using magic to do so, so this argument can't be carried too far. The main >point has to be the distinction between fantasy and reality. Thank you, Frank, for getting to the heart of the matter. The main point IS (emphasis mine) the distinction between fantasy and reality. The Bible makes many injunctions against the use of witchcraft, sorcery, and such like. Christians who are following the teachings of the Bible MUST NOT engage in such activities. If, in the course of a D&D game, the DM starts handing out spells which have been in the past, or are currently being used by certain religious groups (i.e. Satanists, Voo-Doo, etc.), the play ceases to be fantasy and becomes reality no matter what your own personal religious beliefs are. By reality I mean that someone once or still takes them seriously. Atheists, who by definition have no belief in dieties, can consider all gods and "spells" to be fantasy and have no trouble dealing with them. A Christian, on the other hand, believes in the power of Satan and should not deal with such matters. The line between fantasy and reality can get very fine here. From the Christian perspective, it becomes easy for a game to become serious business. The upshot of all this is that the narrow-minded fundamentalists are concerned over the inclusion of spells and ingredients which were taken seriously as coming from Satan in the Middle Ages. They want it out. The athiests think the N-MF's are in a fantasy world and don't take either one seriously. The solution, I don't know. Both are approaching the problem with radically different world-views. This I do know, me and a whole lot of other Christian fundamentalists have been able to reconcile differences and have lots of fun. But again, like Frank said, it boils down to the difference one sees between fantasy and reality. Any other opinions, comments, flames? From the Keep of Webberan, Martin Jordan jordan@nosc.ARPA jordan@cod.UUCP
berosetti@watrose.UUCP (berosetti) (09/25/85)
In article <25@noscvax.UUCP> jordan@cod.UUCP (Martin C. jordan) writes: (edited version) > >The Bible makes many injunctions against the use of witchcraft, sorcery, >and such like. Christians who are following the teachings of the Bible >MUST NOT engage in such activities. > If, in the course of a D&D game, the DM starts handing out spells >which have been in the past, or are currently being used by certain >religious groups (i.e. Satanists, Voo-Doo, etc.), the >play ceases to be fantasy and becomes reality no matter what your own >personal religious beliefs are. By reality I mean that someone once or >still takes them seriously. > Atheists, who by definition have no belief in dieties, can >consider all gods and "spells" to be fantasy and have no trouble dealing >with them. >.. are concerned over the inclusion of spells and ingredients which were >taken seriously as coming from Satan in the Middle Ages. They want it out. >But again, like Frank said, it boils >down to the difference one sees between fantasy and reality. Any other >opinions, comments, flames? > Get serious. Who believes in anyones ability (past or present) to summon a demon or do other neat things? If you are stating that all Christians must (or do) believe in these things (why else would he/she take them seriously?), then you've just destroyed my belief that any human rationality is preserved while one worships a diety. Even given that you do believe in these things (gag, choke), whats the harm in poking a little bit of fun at them. Take for example political cartoons. There's a Pierre Elliot Trudeau game that's out there (I believe) that pokes fun at politics without actually engaging in this evil occupation. Games like RISK use WAR as a basis. There is not much difference between this use of reality in playing and the use of medevil superstitions in playing (or even given that you actually believe in these things, consider the fact that most people believe in WAR). In order to avoid obvious arguments consider that killing people(RISK) damns your soul just as well as summoning demons (D&D). Barry Rosetti {..!watrose!berosetti} Note: If you think RISK should be outlawed (stopped, banned, censored, etc) what about all the other similar games out there. ---- "When in trouble scream and shout, run in panic, jump about" - Heinlein (sp?)
tim@k.cs.cmu.edu.ARPA (Tim Maroney) (09/25/85)
C'mon, Martin, let's hear of just one D&D spell that comes from an authentic medieval grimoire. The closest ones are the summonings, and they're completely inauthentic. The rest are obviously the products of twentieth century imagination. -=- Tim Maroney, Carnegie-Mellon University, Networking ARPA: Tim.Maroney@CMU-CS-K uucp: seismo!cmu-cs-k!tim CompuServe: 74176,1360 audio: shout "Hey, Tim!"
al@mot.UUCP (Al Filipski) (09/27/85)
> > > >using magic to do so, so this argument can't be carried too far. The main > >point has to be the distinction between fantasy and reality. > > Thank you, Frank, for getting to the heart of the matter. The > main point IS (emphasis mine) the distinction between fantasy and reality. > The Bible makes many injunctions against the use of witchcraft, sorcery, > and such like. Christians who are following the teachings of the Bible > MUST NOT engage in such activities. > If, in the course of a D&D game, the DM starts handing out spells > which have been in the past, or are currently being used by certain > religious groups (i.e. Satanists, Voo-Doo, etc.), the > play ceases to be fantasy and becomes reality no matter what your own > personal religious beliefs are. By reality I mean that someone once or > still takes them seriously. This is an unusual definition of reality. Does a Christian have to find out what everybody else's rituals are so that he can avoid them? If some fraud or mental case makes up a belief system with chants and gets others to adopt them, do the chants take on some power? It seems to me that a Christian who frames his outlook in this way is giving the "Satanists" a great deal of power as far as defining reality goes. Why should a Christian believe a Satanist when the latter makes some claim about what is real? Does believing in evil spirits mean believing everything anyone says about them? This is similar to the Christians who accept without question statements of "Satanists" about the vast extent of their conspiratorial activities. No offense meant to anybody by the above, just curious about people's criteria for judging what to believe. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Alan Filipski, UNIX group, Motorola Microsystems, Tempe, AZ U.S.A {seismo|ihnp4}!ut-sally!oakhill!mot!al | ucbvax!arizona!asuvax!mot!al ------------------------------------------------------------------------
dorettas@iddic.UUCP (Doretta Schrock) (09/30/85)
... > >using magic to do so, so this argument can't be carried too far. The main > >point has to be the distinction between fantasy and reality. > > > Thank you, Frank, for getting to the heart of the matter. The > main point IS (emphasis mine) the distinction between fantasy and reality. > The Bible makes many injunctions against the use of witchcraft, sorcery, > and such like. Christians who are following the teachings of the Bible > MUST NOT engage in such activities. > If, in the course of a D&D game, the DM starts handing out spells > which have been in the past, or are currently being used by certain > religious groups (i.e. Satanists, Voo-Doo, etc.), the > play ceases to be fantasy and becomes reality no matter what your own > personal religious beliefs are. By reality I mean that someone once or > still takes them seriously. Really?! There are *many* things that people take seriously that are *simulated* in games of many types. This does not make the people who play the games the same as the people who engage in the activities themselves. This has so many examples that you'll forgive me if I leave them to your imagination (though remember not to imagine *too* much :-]). A simple rule of thumb: Fantasy is what you pay for (in whatever form). Reality is all too free. Mike Sellers "we are the Sultans of swing..."
jordan@noscvax.UUCP (Martin C. Jordan) (09/30/85)
In article <567@k.cs.cmu.edu.ARPA> tim@k.cs.cmu.edu.ARPA (Tim Maroney) writes: >C'mon, Martin, let's hear of just one D&D spell that comes from an authentic >medieval grimoire. The closest ones are the summonings, and they're >completely inauthentic. The rest are obviously the products of twentieth >century imagination. >-=- >Tim Maroney, Carnegie-Mellon University, Networking >ARPA: Tim.Maroney@CMU-CS-K uucp: seismo!cmu-cs-k!tim >CompuServe: 74176,1360 audio: shout "Hey, Tim!" You're correct! The most questionable ones are the summonings. But, there are some who spice up their games with additional material which may be authentic or, for me, too close to the fire for comfort. I have no trouble playing D&D and several other Christians have written that they don't either.....providing that the "play" doesn't border on "reality." Originaly, I was tired of seeing all those "narrow-minded atheists" putting us "narrow-minded fundamentalists" down. It was obvious that they did not understand God and Satan from the perspective of believers in the Old and/or New Testament. I merely wished for others to see the other side of the coin, whether or not we agreed. I like your attitude, but some don't even want to look at another viewpoint, hence, the "narrow-minded atheist." I guess I'd better break out my asbestos suit, I feel the flames coming. Martin Jordan
slb@drutx.UUCP (Sue Brezden) (10/01/85)
I wasn't sure whether to mail or post this. The whole topic may belong in net.religion. And it's a bit longish. But what the heck. This newsgroup is fairly quiet compared to some others. jordan@noscvax.UUCP (Martin C. Jordan) writes: > If, in the course of a D&D game, the DM starts handing out spells >which have been in the past, or are currently being used by certain >religious groups (i.e. Satanists, Voo-Doo, etc.), the >play ceases to be fantasy and becomes reality no matter what your own >personal religious beliefs are. By reality I mean that someone once or >still takes them seriously. Your definition of reality is interesting. The reason I say it is interesting is that it does not seem very Christian to me. You seem to be saying that reality is anything anyone believes. Sounds like Buddhism to me. Reality is just that because it's all Void, anyway. For instance, in some meditation practices, one concentrates on the diety, actually making it real to the meditator. The real point of the practice, however, is to show that all is Void--the diety included. In one sense, dieties do not exist, in another, they are as real as you or I. I thought that Christians did not believe other gods exist. You seem to be saying they do. Seems to me you can't have it both ways. Either the gods and magic exist (in some sense, perhaps as in Buddhism above), and you should join us pagans, or they don't, and you don't need to worry about them in your campaign, because they are fantasy. If they do not exist, then your choices are "something else" i.e. a Christian god, the Tao etc., or atheism (Note: not a complete list of choices.) Instead, you say they exist, but you are still a Christian. > Atheists, who by definition have no belief in dieties, can >consider all gods and "spells" to be fantasy and have no trouble dealing >with them. A Christian, on the other hand, believes in the power of Satan >and should not deal with such matters. The line between fantasy and >reality can get very fine here. A couple of remarks. First, not all Christians believe in "the power of Satan." Secondly, I don't think every element in a game has to be complete fantasy to give people no trouble dealing with it. For instance, I know hitting someone with a sword HURTS them. I am a very non-violent person. But I don't have any trouble saying "I run up and hit him with my sword." That is an example of a non-fantasy element, in fact something very serious to me, that I can put in a fantasy setting. "But religion is different," I hear you say. Not really. How about an example? I DM a campaign in the Indian mythos. In that campaign, Shiva is a lawful evil god. Now, I worship Lord Shiva, seriously. I know that he is not lawful evil. But I made him lawful evil in the campaign because I needed a lawful evil diety, and because his aspect as the Destroyer meshes nicely with the campaign. I know he has other aspects, and that even the Destroyer is actually benign in a sense, but in my fantasy world he is the enemy. (Or one of the enemies, to be more precise.) I am playing with my beliefs. Likewise, if and when people reach the part of my world that is Chinese mythos, I will not hesitate to use Kuan Yin, my other major diety. I don't have any trouble saying "This is a game." As a matter of fact, it seems quite important to me to step back and play with my beliefs--to laugh at them, in fact. So, I don't understand why you have such difficulties. Who cares what you believe in a game? >From the Christian perspective, it becomes >easy for a game to become serious business. That may be Christianity's whole problem, at least in my mind--it becomes easy for EVERYTHING to become serious business. Reality is just Maya's play, after all. I've always thought that if there is something you can't laugh at and play with, then that is something that is a problem to you, not a help. (And yes, it happens to me all the time, and yes, I think it is serious business. :-)) >This I do know, me and a >whole lot of other Christian fundamentalists have been able to reconcile >differences and have lots of fun. I don't really see how you have reconciled anything. But I'm glad you're having fun. Glad you play. -- Sue Brezden Real World: Room 1B17 Net World: ihnp4!drutx!slb AT&T Information Systems 11900 North Pecos Westminster, Co. 80234 (303)538-3829 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Your god may be dead, but mine aren't. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
ln63fac@sdcc7.UUCP (Rick Frey) (10/03/85)
Forgive me responding to the earlier article from your response, but I was unable to locate the original and I'm very much interested in this discussion having played D&D for 4+ years and having been a Christian (and still being one) at the time. Anyway, on with the response. > > The Bible makes many injunctions against the use of witchcraft, sorcery, > > and such like. Christians who are following the teachings of the Bible > > MUST NOT engage in such activities. Ok so far. Just for accuracy's sake, it's nice to include references with you whenever possible. I've been yelled at for paraphrasing and have had to go back numerous times all because I didn't give the reference(s) the first time. > > If, in the course of a D&D game, the DM starts handing out spells > > which have been in the past, or are currently being used by certain > > religious groups (i.e. Satanists, Voo-Doo, etc.), the > > play ceases to be fantasy and becomes reality no matter what your own > > personal religious beliefs are. By reality I mean that someone once or > > still takes them seriously. > This sure doesn't seem to be what Paul's saying in I Corinthians 10:25-29. "Eat anything that is sold in the meat market, without asking questions for the conscience's sake; For the earth is the Lord's, and all that it contains. If one of the unbelievers invites you, and you wish to go, eat anything set before you, without asking questions for conscience's sake. But if anyone should say to you, 'this meat this is meat sacrificed to idols', do not eat it, for the sake fo the one who informed you and for conscience's sake. I mean not your own conscience, but the other man's; for why is my freedom judged by another's conscience?" This last verse seems to sum up Paul's point, that the sacrificing meat to idols is not good (he says that earlier, vs. 20) but that we don't need to worry about it if it isn't us doing the sacrifice. To try to put it in the language of your own words, this is part of some evil/satanic religious' group's practices, but partaking of it does not reflect back on my spirituality. One last point to address that you might bring up is that playing D&D is optional, therefor it doesn't fit this example, but notice Paul says, "If you wish to go", not if it's your spiritual, God-commanded duty, but simply if you wish. Pauls goes so far as to say don't even worry about it enough to ask questions. As Christ says in Mark 7:15, "There is nothing outside the man which going into him can defile him; but the things which proceed out of the man are what defile the man." Rick Frey (...!ihnp4!sdcsvax!sdcc6!ix415)
nrh@lzwi.UUCP (N.R.HASLOCK) (10/04/85)
This discussion is raising some interesting points. My
interpretation of Satanism is that it is flawed Christianity. The
logic of the argument being.
God created everything - even Satan.
Satan turned out to be a rebel however he(?she?it?) kept
all of the powers and abilities given by god.
Worshiping Satan is thus worship of a creation of god and by
definition futile as Satan does not have all of the
powers and ability of God.
Why Satan would wish to be worshiped is
incomprehensible to me, however if he rewards his
worshipers the there is an obvious advantage in
doing so.
Worshiping God should be more constructive as God has a
greater ability to reward his worshipers.
The question therefore hangs on who atually hands out
rewards.
Finally, my impression of the bible is that demons are
mentioned only in the old testament and so should not
figure in the teachings of Christianity. The old
testament view of demons seems to me to be chaotic
neutral while Jehova appeared to be more lawful
evil.
I do not remember any benevolent powers although I admit to
not reading it cover to cover.
I gave up Christianity because of this fundamental lack of
freedom to develop the mind and spirit and the apparant lack of
rewards for following the narrow path that has grown narrower with
every passing year and reinterpretation by the hierarchy.
As for the comments of the spells. The grimoires are full of
spells of flight, transformation, illusion, healing, cursing. The
spells that are missing are the dramatic ones like megadamage
fireballs.
Happy Gaming.
Leave this religious propaganda to the paranoid.
If they make too much trouble, surely you adapt and use some
of the traps you have run into against such rabble, rabbles being
non alert, non observant, non intelligent and noisy.
--
--
{ihnp4|vax135|allegra}!lznv!nrh
Nigel The Mad Englishman or
The Madly Maundering Mumbler in the Wildernesses
Everything you have read here is a figment of your imagination.
Noone else in the universe currently subscribes to these opinions.
"Its the rope, you know. You can't get it, you know."berosetti@watrose.UUCP (Barry Rosetti) (10/04/85)
[] >But, there are some who spice up their games with additional material >which may be authentic or, for me, too close to the fire for comfort. >I was tired of seeing all those "narrow-minded >atheists" putting us "narrow-minded fundamentalists" down. It was obvious >that they did not understand God and Satan from the perspective of believers >in the Old and/or New Testament. >I like your attitude, >but some don't even want to look at another viewpoint, hence, the >"narrow-minded atheist." I guess I'd better break out my asbestos suit, >I feel the flames coming. > A prophecy is fulfilled (ie. I feel the flames coming..): A lot of things to say: For the most part atheists are not narrow minded. Most atheists are not as obtuse as you would like to believe but are responding to threats of obliteration with a survival instinct. They simply want to use their (God given) intelligence and imagination with out fear of being burned at the stake. I am not an atheist but, because I cannot tolerate the totalitarian suppression of the mind, I am called an atheist by narrow minded fundamentalists. I see this kind of suppression in your statements such as "And they want it out."-> here there is no room for compromise or admission of willingness to understand, this is just the kind of suppression I (all of us) have to strike out against in order to survive. By the way, you say you want understanding, well, I understand (all too well) and I may not agree but that's my perogative. The viewpoints I see expressed by the fundamentalists are of the form "They won't change, so they don't understand, so they're going to burn in hell, so we have to save their souls, so lets impose our wills on the population as a whole". There is no understanding in this attitude just a lot of paranoid and a little bit of Nazism and stupidity. I truly beleive this is their thinking process (from MUCH first hand experience). No prophecies. Barry Rosetti {..!watdcsu!watrose!berosetti} PS: Should I turn down the heat??? ----- "May your God go with you" - Dave Allen.
days@glasgow.glasgow.UUCP (Judge Dredd) (10/09/85)
> Satan turned out to be a rebel however he(?she?it?) kept > all of the powers and abilities given by god. I heard it as "Satan was given the job of tempting man, he did not enjoy this, as he is basically a good guy. When he left heaven (not kicked out), he took 2/3 rds of the other angels with him. > Finally, my impression of the bible is that demons are > mentioned only in the old testament and so should not > figure in the teachings of Christianity. The old > testament view of demons seems to me to be chaotic > neutral while Jehova appeared to be more lawful > evil. > A demon is basically what the early christians called the previous Gods. By doing this they can therefore prove to themselves that non-Christians are actively evil, and thus are perfectly willing to let them burn in the afterlife, and if it can be arranged, in this life too. > {ihnp4|vax135|allegra}!lznv!nrh > Nigel The Mad Englishman or Ps. Anyone know anything about a book called "the key of Solomon" or some such, suppose to be about demons. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ SATAN LIVES. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ It's amazing really, the time people spend arguing about this subject, when in reality it's only a story, and not a particularily well written one at that. -- Stephen Day, Comp Sci Dept, University of Glasgow, Scotland seismo!mcvax!ukc!glasgow!days If time were like a treacle bun, I would enjoy it so, But now it seems it's on the run, I'd really better go.