jaxom@hpda.UUCP (Lance Saleme) (01/09/86)
I'm looking for comments and ideas from other DM's on how to handle
mixed technologies in an AD&D world. I've recently begun a campaign
that puts a group of modern (actually circa 2010AD) individuals into
a classical AD&D world (rules by-the-books). They've gone through a
polymorph race-filter to make sure that their classes don't conflict
with the book's human class limitations (i.e. human becomes elf or
half-elf to allow split classes).
The details of how they aquire weapon proficiency, etc have been covered
along with the technological basis for magic and monster existance. The
real problem is how do I map (with a reasonable outcome) the ancient
artifacts that are part of the precursor civilization that resulted in
the AD&D world? This could be a parallel problem to the recent discussion
of putting lasers into a game. The difference here is that my 'world' is
based on the idea that:
"A sufficiently advanced technology would be indistinguisalble from magic."
To be specific, I would like opinions on how to map 'blasters' into AD&D
weapons statistics. (i.e. +4 longbow {d6+6 dmg / shot} ?)
1. Blaster rifle.
2. Blaster pistol.
3. Blaster cannon.
4. Defense shield. (i.e. Minor Globe of Invulnerability)?
5. Laser knife.
6. Force shield. (Wizard locked invisible door)?
That's the general idea.
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Now, for the wave of criticism that I'm sure this will cause: No, I don't
plan to have tons of this stuff sitting in the middle of a room in some
lonely dungeon. No, this isn't a Monty dungeon filled with hack&slash
beginner players. And no, we aren't satisfied with building campaigns
that stick strictly to book definitions.
The group consists of four very experienced DMs and three experienced
players ranging between 25 and 40 years old. We are all technical
professionals in the computer industry (hence the interested in mixed
technology D&D).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I hate to say it, but you'll probably have to post the responses here
since I don't know my full USENET address (new to H.P.). Thanks in
advance for your help.
Dragonrider "The Krell had the right idea, too bad they forgot about the Id."
+---------------------+
| {ucbvax!hpda!hpitg} | My opinions are my own since my employer would
| that's all I know. | never admit that they know who I am.
+---------------------+cc@ucla-cs.UUCP (01/13/86)
In article <1277@hpda.UUCP> jaxom@hpda.UUCP (Lance Saleme) writes: >I'm looking for comments and ideas from other DM's on how to handle >mixed technologies in an AD&D world. I've recently begun a campaign >that puts a group of modern (actually circa 2010AD) individuals into >a classical AD&D world (rules by-the-books). They've gone through a >polymorph race-filter to make sure that their classes don't conflict >with the book's human class limitations (i.e. human becomes elf or >half-elf to allow split classes). An obvious responce : don't play AD&D!!!! Run it in I.C.E. system! Use Dragonquest! Use Runequest and adjust your weapons/etc to one of the techno games in Chaosium repertoir - Ring World for example! >To be specific, I would like opinions on how to map 'blasters' into AD&D >weapons statistics. (i.e. +4 longbow {d6+6 dmg / shot} ?) > >1. Blaster rifle. >2. Blaster pistol. >3. Blaster cannon. If you view "blaster" as essentially a force field punch projector - use Spiritual hammer scaled up ( x2+3 for #1 ; +3 for #2; x6+12(?) for #3). If you think blasters are slug throwers -- use magic missile ( scaled up). If you want blasters to act as lazer weapon - use a (red?) ray of the prismatic spray. For fire-projecting weapons use a horisontal flame-strike. >4. Defense shield. (i.e. Minor Globe of Invulnerability)? Do you REALLY need to have an explanation for this? Just call it an artifact without additional magic powers! >5. Laser knife. A "vorpal" blade. Or a blade of sharpness. >6. Force shield. (Wizard locked invisible door)? Same as in 4. Really.... >The group consists of four very experienced DMs and three experienced >players ranging between 25 and 40 years old. We are all technical >professionals in the computer industry (hence the interested in mixed >technology D&D). All I can say is : TRY A DIFFERENT FRPG system than TSR's ?D&D stuff! I've heard the HERO games series is not bad : They cover Hi-Tech, Lo-Tech, Magic and monster/animal environments ( or so I've heard...) ================================================================================ "I disbelieve the army of invisible Mindflayers!" "OK, they are STILL not there!" Oleg Kiselev.
jagardner@watmath.UUCP (Jim Gardner) (01/14/86)
In article <8330@ucla-cs.ARPA> cc@ucla-cs.UUCP (Oleg Kiselev) writes: >In article <1277@hpda.UUCP> jaxom@hpda.UUCP (Lance Saleme) writes: >>I'm looking for comments and ideas from other DM's on how to handle >>mixed technologies in an AD&D world. > >All I can say is : TRY A DIFFERENT FRPG system than TSR's ?D&D stuff! >I've heard the HERO games series is not bad : They cover Hi-Tech, Lo-Tech, >Magic and monster/animal environments ( or so I've heard...) The HERO games system does cover this situation very nicely, although you have to buy a fair amount of stuff to put it all together. Magic is described in "Fantasy Hero". Super-high tech devices (e.g. killer lasers, teleporters, force-fields) are described in "Champions" (along with a lot of other superpower stuff). Modern-day weaponry (from M-15s to Phantom Jets) is described in "Danger International". Since the underlying system is always the same, the genres can be combined quite successfully. One note: to create a HERO character, you use "points" to "buy" skills, powers, characteristics, etc. Magic turns out to be very expensive, while conventional weapons are free. Essentially, magic is part of your character, while weapons are not. Someone who builds a magic-using character, spends most of his points on the magic; someone who builds a weapon-using character can buy up strength, dexterity, speed, etc. In any fight, this tilts the balance strongly in favour of weapon-users (although a well-balanced party will certainly have a magic-user or two). This is true, even when the weapon-users are using medieval weapons; if they have modern weapons (e.g. sub-machine guns), the balance will be even more skewed, at least until the ammo runs out. This is precisely what you would expect, of course. However, those who are used to D&D will be surprised at how disadvantaged magic-users are in the HERO system in comparison to a fighter with the same number of points...at least when it comes to combat. Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo the weapon-users
hogge@uiucdcsp.CS.UIUC.EDU (01/18/86)
A couple years ago I was interested in techno-AD&D integration. A simple way to do it is to buy a copy of GammaWorld and follow the suggestions in the DM guide for integrating the two systems. I found the two melee systems to be pretty compatable. --John
shigeta@reed.UUCP (Ron Shigeta) (01/19/86)
This is not a direct answer to the asked question, but I think it is interesting in any case. After several years of buying every game in sight and a subsequent lack of play due to seperation, my high school gaming group decided to play an eilmination-style tourniment of the systems. This included AD&D, D&D, Traveller the fantasy trip, Car wars, Top Secret, Aftermath, Tunnels and Trolls, Rune quest, and a hybrid fantasy system which we had made out of D&D and runequest. To overcome the hassle of interpreting every stupid detail, the rule of thumb was that every thing a contestant did would be implemented under that system's rules and the target of an attack, spell, etc. was treated as much as being under the same system. For example a Tunnels and trolls character with a adds of, say 155, would, since a D&D character has no adds on his sheet, do 155 points of damage to the average D&D character. Or almost anyone was susceptible to charm spells since only D&D characters have the saving rolls in their system. On the other hand, a Runequest spirit attack would do nothing, since it's opponent has no POW attribute. In any case, I will account the most interesting of the rounds that of modified D&D vs Top Secret. The cavern was a 5 mile by 2 mile cavern with a cieling of a mile or two with six caves, two of which led to an underground labyrinth for dirty close quarter fighting. Top Secret had had it's moment of popularity with us and there were al- most a hundred agents due to one zealous person in our group who was building Top Secret characters for a NETWORK in his spare time. Even though things like WISH and TIME STOP and the LORDSHIP OF TIME (T&T) were banished to make things interesting, the modified RQ-D&D hybrid system (a.k.a. Doug's system) had some of the most powerful characters ever played by our group including an elf who could fire his Arrow of In- stant Return to the Quiver of the Arrow of Instant Returning SIXTY FOUR times per melee round- about the equivalent to two or three Top Secret machine guns. The agents had a biplane spraying nerve gas on our side of the cavern in the first few turns. The MUs had changed all the worthless magicless characters into a bunch of rocks using a massmorph spell and moved them to a far island behnd enemy lines while flying on invisibility. The dwarf put the biplane out of commission with a few shots from his +5 returning hammer and a lightning bolt . The pilot bailed out and as a rescue Blue lightning chopper came out to get him, I CHARMED him and told him to wait until he had a good chance, and then kill as many people as he could. Minutes later, a suprised man in a jumpsuit was thrown out of the Air Wolf 361 chopper and the helicopter turned to strafe a mountain top gun emplacement and it's home field hospital. Meanwhile the dwarf homed in on a caravan of armored vehicles. The road was split open by an earthquake and a hurricane dumped the rest of the vehicles into the lake and split open a very expensive yacht. The only moral for the boys in three piece suits lay in a group of 20 men sweeping the perimeter. The machine-bow elf popped out of invisibility and started firing, killing ten in the first round, when a little dead-man switch was tripped and the whole squad went up in a huge explosion. If it hadn't been for the ring of regeneration, we might have lost a man... Finally, all of the strange opponents with wands of lead throwing dis- sappeared: they went into the caverns, determined to make one last stand and to use every little bit of dirty close quarter in-fighting they knew. Sadly, this was not meant to be. Instead, both entrances were walled up with 10 feet of stone with a 2 inch hole in either end and a Bottle of everlasting water was tipped to one of the holes. The on-going revelry at either end lasted for foru several days. In contrast to this sad scene, let us look at the match between The Fantasy Trip and traveller. The round, as related to me, was pretty tight. Most of the little weenies on either side were wiped pretty easily since the improvised FIRST FUSION Squad defoliated three quarters of the cavern area and Asmodius with his wonderful 10000 point ST battery were taking out the high tech wimps with a combination of Reverse Missiles and Wizard Fire bolts. When things got realy hard, though, the Traveller group showed it's strength. What's this here? No, not that, this... Psionic strength? Mindblast? While the warlocks kamikazied into the tougher generals and admirals' Battle Armor +2 with suicide teleports, Asmodius and his elite Excelsior troop suddenly found their brains as the proverbial poodle in the microwave, and the game was over. The point is, that while a lot of saving rolls are made, a techno or\ a magic user can have just as much an advantage no matter what the situation since the GM can decide how much an advantage the superior experiance with strange technology or magic will allow. Do invisible objects appear on radar or LI/IR goggles? that sort of thing.
dam@uvacs.UUCP (01/19/86)
Having been through some very strange uni- and multi- verses, I've run across many different ways to run blasters. I suppose it would help those of us who run high-tech in AD&D dungeons if we had a set of specs for the high-tech weapons, such as: what size are the projectiles (if any)? How much force is behind the blast? Is the target area very narrow (as with a rifle bullet or laser) or wide (shotgun)? By way of comparison, I've also run across "normal" guns; a rifle or pistol bullet does about 1-6 hp with a check for hit location, and a .20 gauge shotgun does 1-8. As for laser knives, I give them 1-4 damage but with much less mess than a dagger generates. I would be happy to hear more discussion on this topic since I am readying a campaign based on Clarke's Third Law myself. ! - - - - - - - - - - - - - ! ! For those of you who ! Dave Montuori ! know, AHTAOTG! ! ! - - - - - - - - - - - - - !
cs111olg@ucla-cs.UUCP (01/20/86)
In article <2338@reed.UUCP> shigeta@reed.UUCP (Ron Shigeta) recounts his
experiences in mixed-system gaming where the system-of-the-moment was the
reference and no inter-system character translation was done.
All I can say is "Horror! Anathema! Blasphemy! Infidels! <your favorite
expression of dismay here >"
BTW, as a side reference on mixing magic and technology, Superman, who was
biologicaly(?) superior to any weapon or techno-wizardry and was immune to
everything exept for Kryptonite, had no magic resistance at all. Dr. Strange and
Wonder Woman could defeat him any day and any time... Not that an intelligent
Gamer would play something absurd enough to allow such exteremes ( Super Hero
games are excluded )
===============================+===============================================
The life of a Troubleshooter is| Back in school, Oleg Kiselev.
full of surprizes! | ...!ucla-cs!{cs111olg|oac6.oleg}dobro@ulowell.UUCP (Chet Dobro) (01/21/86)
> I'm looking for comments and ideas from other DM's on how to handle > mixed technologies in an AD&D world. I've recently begun a campaign My imediate reply is *DON'T*. As both player and DM having to deal with these things, it gets pretty messsy, but when needed, as in your case... > that puts a group of modern (actually circa 2010AD) individuals into > a classical AD&D world (rules by-the-books). They've gone through a > polymorph race-filter to make sure that their classes don't conflict > with the book's human class limitations (i.e. human becomes elf or > half-elf to allow split classes). Neat idea, though you could have either made the humans split-class or fudged the rules. I like it, though... > The details of how they aquire weapon proficiency, etc have been covered > along with the technological basis for magic and monster existance. The > real problem is how do I map (with a reasonable outcome) the ancient > artifacts that are part of the precursor civilization that resulted in > the AD&D world? This could be a parallel problem to the recent discussion > of putting lasers into a game. The difference here is that my 'world' is > based on the idea that: > > "A sufficiently advanced technology would be indistinguisalble from magic." > > To be specific, I would like opinions on how to map 'blasters' into AD&D > weapons statistics. (i.e. +4 longbow {d6+6 dmg / shot} ?) > > 1. Blaster rifle. Rate of Fire: as light crossbow (same proficiency too) Damage: nd8 (where 'n' [suggested range 2-4] is thing's relative power) > 2. Blaster pistol. ROF: as hand crossbow (same proficency as well) damage: md6 (where 'm' is less than 'n' above, in the range 1-3) > 3. Blaster cannon. ROF: as ballista (if I am assuming this thing to be comparable) dmg: pd10 or pd12 (where 'p' is in the range 4-7) #1-#3 are assuming no charges (or a set number per hour or whataver) If you limit them to non-replacable charges, by all means up the power. > 4. Defense shield. (i.e. Minor Globe of Invulnerability)? What does it defend against? It could act as Ring of Protection +a with other advantages as well. > 5. Laser knife. Think along the lines of a +n (whatever appropriate) Dagger, Flame tongue. Not only swords can have neat features. > 6. Force shield. (Wizard locked invisible door)? Again, see #4's comment. ------ Also, as a general help, take a look at module S3 "Expedition to the Barrier Peaks" It deals a lot with how tech-items translate into AD&D terms. Going back to my first comment - be very careful how this works. Items that do not use up charges can become very powerful, but without replacable charges they get used up fast. Maybe some MU could research a spell to charge tech items... Good luck, let us know how things work out. Gryphon
jeff@utastro.UUCP (Jeff Brown the Scumbag) (01/21/86)
I have found (in my old experience in DMing, which was a while back)
that putting high-tech items into a campaign was a lot of fun.
The fun is not how to run the high-tech items; the fun is watching
the players try to figure out what a high-tech item does and how to
use it! Come on, people, a bunch of medievals is not going to be
able to figure out a blaster without killing at least one of their
party in the process. This is especially true if lots of high-tech
items are out of juice, otherwise defective, or just plain non-functional.
(My favorite trick was to have a party find an electric pencil sharpener.
Hours of hilarious things would result: "We point the thing with its
hole toward the trolls and pull the cord.") I had one crew stumble
on the destruct sequence for a small portable nuclear powerblock, which
had a yield in the kiloton range (and it was NOT an easy thing to find,
but they were being methodical and trying all possible combinations
of the controls trying to get it to do something). End of Adventure.
And the things that happened when another group found a high-tech field
medical kit....
Instructions may be written in plain sight, but Technic may not succumb
to even magical translators. And there is the Larry Niven story (with
the Kzinti and the discovery of the tnuctip stasis box) about trying to
figure out devices from a superior technology. It can be difficult to
be obscure to the player characters so that the players (with their 20th-
century knowledge) don't draw conclusions the medievals can't. The
only way a player can play an ignorant character is if he (the player)
IS ignorant. Even then, the medievals are not going to be very good
at using their toys. Watch somebody trying to drive a car (or ride a
bike) who has ONLY a verbal description of how to do such a thing.
My feeling was that if they found an item that was worth having and
figured out how to use it without destroying themselves, then they were
welcome to it. Generally, though, messing with such things was so
dangerous that players rapidly put distance between themselves and
anything that smelled of high technology.
In terms of raw damage a high-tech weapon will produce, keep in mind
that things ought to be functional. A high-techer's handgun/blaster
is not going to be able to vaporize castles: that big an effect is likely
to include the user in the kill radius. It should be able dispatch
any reasonable-size creature, and not much more. Things in the heavy
artillery class will have a (considerable) minimum range. Personal
force shields should have severe limits on their duration, and certainly
on their range, and there should be either a power limitation or a
side effect that makes it less than a wonderful idea to keep it on all
the time (ozone production? lack of oxygen/CO2 flow? sub- or super-
sonic generation? a glow that attracts undesirable things? a bad smell?).
And how do you turn it off when you don't want it on any more? Large-
scale defenses will not be very portable, simply because they don't
have to be.
In short, I loved a sprinkling of high-tech as a DM. I had a saying
which I think is close to the core of the best of frp games: "The best
way to liven up a dull campaign is to come up with a novel way to kill
player characters, and demonstrate its effect."
Jeff Brown the Scumbag
{allegra,ihnp4}!{noao,ut-sally}!utastro!jeff
jeff@astro.UTEXAS.EDU
Astronomy Department, U. of Texas, Austinhogge@uiucdcsp.CS.UIUC.EDU (01/25/86)
>Jeff Brown, the scum bag.
Hmmmm. Scum Bag sounds about right. Finding new ways of blowing away
characters isn't hard and isn't very fun. Nonetheless, if you like Jeff's
suggestion for making techno-items tough (and dangerous) to figure out,
Gamma world has a reasonable system for that purpose. It makes use of flow
charts which map the progress of tinkering with techno-items, with chances
for accidents, success, and permanent failure. The character progresses
through his tinkering, getting "warmer" or "colder" towards learning the item.
Player's knowledge of 20th century technology doesn't matter.
Death is boring. Challenging struggles to defeat death are interesting.
That's why I've always found instant killer traps and magic items droll.
A complicated trap that you know is there and that you have to think your
way through is fine, but nuking your dedicated players for pressing some
button is a bit harsh, don't you thing? (flame-off)
--Johnlucius@tardis.UUCP (lucius) (01/27/86)
> Hmmmm. Scum Bag sounds about right. Finding new ways of blowing away > characters isn't hard and isn't very fun. Nonetheless, if you like Jeff's > suggestion for making techno-items tough (and dangerous) to figure out, > Gamma world has a reasonable system for that purpose. It makes use of flow > charts which map the progress of tinkering with techno-items, with chances > for accidents, success, and permanent failure. The character progresses > through his tinkering, getting "warmer" or "colder" towards learning the item. > Player's knowledge of 20th century technology doesn't matter. Nevertheless, players' "common sense" should matter (see below). > Death is boring. Challenging struggles to defeat death are interesting. > That's why I've always found instant killer traps and magic items droll. > A complicated trap that you know is there and that you have to think your > way through is fine, but nuking your dedicated players for pressing some > button is a bit harsh, don't you thing? (flame-off) I don't know how to "thing," but I think that *trying* to nuke your dedicated players for pressing some button is not only more realistic, but fine; the issue is you have to give them a fair chance to keep you from nuking them by taking reasonable precautions (although ones that might in themselves be challenging to set up) (the same applies for instant killer anything else). For example, first set up a bad but non-fatal experience to show them that high-tech items are quite dangerous as well as weird to their characters (this may be unnecessary and thus omittable for some players), and then provide more deadly items. After their first experience (some players might require a little more to get the idea), players should be doing things like putting the high-tech object behind a very thick rock wall or Wall of Force or other appropiately tough protection within their means to construct and using Unseen Servants and such to push buttons, pull levers/triggers (this last can also be done with a string going over the wall or through a very small hole in it), etc. while using Clairvoyance, Wizard Eye, or other means to see what happens while remaining safe (for the most part. . .). This kind of testing would also provide the chance for the additional challenge of someone or something plotting to steal the item while it was on the other side of the barrier from the players, and the players having to take precautions to prevent this. -- -- Lucius Chiaraviglio { seismo!tardis!lucius | lucius@tardis.UUCP } "Don't tug on that. You never know what that might be attached to."