ugpoltr1@sunybcs (Jim Poltrone) (02/21/88)
After being somewhat disappointed in my job search here in Western New
York, I had heard that there are many programming jobs in the Toronto
area. As an American citizen, I realize that there is a natural bias
towards hiring Canadians, and I suspect I would have to change the status
of my citizenship. What would I have to do to be able to work in
Ontario? I've heard about "landed immigrant" status. Could someone
please explain it in detail to me? Is it possible to have dual
citizenship? I already know that the average salary is greater (than that
of the US), but the buying power is less, because of the exchange rate.
(Finally! Some questions to get this newsgroup moving. :-) )
If anyone has any advice or suggestions, please mail or post. If I
get enough responses, I shall post a summary, for the benefit of those
who are considering the expansion of their job search northward. Thanks
in advance.
--
Jim Poltrone (The USENET Junkie) | "Do you realise....
| this world....
Internet: ugpoltr1@joey.cs.buffalo.edu | is totally fugazi?!"
uucp: [decvax,watmath,rocksanne]!sunybcs!ugpoltr1 | -Marillionnixon@ai.toronto.edu (Brian Nixon) (02/22/88)
Landed immigrant status is note the same as citizenship. Differences include eligibility for voting and certain government jobs. Landed immigrant status may be lost much more easily than citizenship. Brian Nixon.
gvcormack@watdragon.waterloo.edu (Gordon V. Cormack) (02/22/88)
In article <8701@sunybcs.UUCP>, ugpoltr1@sunybcs (Jim Poltrone) writes: > ... As an American citizen, I realize that there is a natural bias > towards hiring Canadians, and I suspect I would have to change the status > of my citizenship. What would I have to do to be able to work in > Ontario? I've heard about "landed immigrant" status. Could someone > please explain it in detail to me? Is it possible to have dual > citizenship? I already know that the average salary is greater (than that > of the US), but the buying power is less, because of the exchange rate. Canadian employers are required by law to hire qualified Canadians or landed immigrants in preference to Americans. If an employer has had a vacancy for some time that he has been unable to fill, it shouldn't be a problem for him to convince Immigration Canada. The employer deals with the red tape of all this... If you get an interview, it should mean they are in a position to do it. Landed Immigrant status is the equivalent of a "green card". You get it for your job, and once you get it, you can change jobs or whatever with no problems. There is no time limit - you can be a Landed Immigrant forever and it is for all intents and purposes the same as being a Canadian Citizen. You can become a citizen after a number of years of being a LI. I believe the USA revokes your American citizenship if you become Canadian. There are dual citizens, but they were born here to mixed US/Canadian parents. As to dollars, I can't really compare salaries -- this is job dependent. The Canadian $ is currently worth about $0.80 US. My impression from travelling around is that one $CAN buys about the same in Canada as one $US buys in the US. Toronto is, as you might expect, one of the more expensive places in Canada, and I don't think salaries are commensurately higher. -- Gordon V. Cormack CS Dept, University of Waterloo, Canada N2L 3G1 gvcormack@waterloo { .CSNET or .CDN or .EDU } gvcormack@water { UUCP or BITNET }
tjsmedley@watmum.waterloo.edu (Trevor J Smedley) (02/22/88)
In article <5285@watdragon.waterloo.edu> (Gordon V. Cormack) writes: > >Landed Immigrant status is the equivalent of a "green card". You >get it for your job, and once you get it, you can change jobs or >whatever with no problems. There is no time limit - you can be >a Landed Immigrant forever and it is for all intents and purposes >the same as being a Canadian Citizen. Most people don't get Landed Immigrant Status right away. In fact, because it gives you almost all the rights of a citizen, it is quite hard to get. What you can get fairly easily (if you are looking for a job where there are more positions than qualified people, as is the case with computer science) is a work visa. Quite often, although not always, this is job specific, and you need permission to change jobs. After working for some period of time (two years, in most cases) you can then apply for Landed Immigrant Status (which, by the way, is now called Permanent Resident Status, I think). Trevor J. Smedley University of Waterloo {decvax,allegra,ihnp4,utzoo}!watmum!tjsmedley
peter@ontmoh.UUCP (Peter Renzland) (02/23/88)
From article <8701@sunybcs.UUCP>, by ugpoltr1@sunybcs (Jim Poltrone): [...] > area. As an American citizen, I realize that there is a natural bias > towards hiring Canadians, and I suspect I would have to change the status > of my citizenship. What would I have to do to be able to work in > Ontario? I've heard about "landed immigrant" status. You don't have to change your citizenship to work in Canada, but you do have to have permission to work, and being a landed immigrant certainly gives you that. Here's a trivium: If/when you do apply for immigration status, it is often better to do so at and office where people are happy whenever a real customer comes in the door. A few years ago, a Canada Immigration office was opened in Atlanta. Might be worth checking out. [...] > Is it possible to have dual citizenship? Canada doesn't care. Other countries often do. _If_you_want_to_work in_the_Ontario_government_, you have to be a Canadian Citizen, or else swear an Oath of Allegiance to Her Majesty. This oath is, essentially, the Canadian Citizenship Oath. (Feel free to re-read that :-) Until a few years ago, swearing such an oath would have jeopardised your US citizenship, and you would have become stateless. Later, the US allowed the oath, so long as it is "for employment purposes". Of course, it's possible not to swear the oath and remain on probation indefiniteley. > I already know that the average salary is greater (than that > of the US), but the buying power is less, because of the exchange rate. Perhaps you should consider working in Mexico? Stay away from Jordan -- awfully low salaries :-) Peter Renzland Ontario Ministry of Health, 15 Overlea Blvd, Toronto, Canada M4H 1A9 ____________________________________________________________________________ 416/964-9141 peter@ontmoh.UUCP peter@ontmoh.UTORONTO usrgroup@utgpu.UUCP
gamiddleton@watmath.waterloo.edu (Guy Middleton) (02/23/88)
In article <5285@watdragon.waterloo.edu> gvcormack@watdragon.waterloo.edu (Gordon V. Cormack) writes: > You can become a citizen after a number of years of being a LI. > I believe the USA revokes your American citizenship if you become > Canadian. There are dual citizens, but they were born here to > mixed US/Canadian parents. This is no longer true. It is now possible for an American to aquire Canadian citizenship, without having U.S. citizenship revoked.
rbutterworth@watmath.waterloo.edu (Ray Butterworth) (02/23/88)
In article <1988Feb22.121808.11474@jarvis.csri.toronto.edu>, nixon@ai.toronto.edu (Brian Nixon) writes: > Landed immigrant status is not the same as citizenship. > Differences include eligibility for voting and certain government jobs. (Do you know which government jobs?) Non-citizens are also prohibited from owning radio and TV stations. It took me 20 years before I applied for citizenship; my parents nearly 30. Other than voting privileges, there is no noticeable difference for most people. Non-citizens are not required to carry identity cards, and are not required to register their addresses with the government every year as are "resident aliens" in the US. Barring a drastic change in government policy, unless you have a shady background and lied about it on your application there is very little chance of losing landed status once you get it. > Landed immigrant status may be lost much more easily than citizenship. In fact it is very difficult to lose citizenship. Canadian rules seem to work the opposite way to most countries. If you were born here, even if while your parents were vacationing here, you are a Canadian citizen. If you are born elsewere, you are a Canadian citizen if your parents were at the time. Once you have Canadian citizenship, even if you move elsewhere and become a citizen of that country you don't lose your Canadian citizenship (although in many places, e.g. USA, to become a citizen of that country you must formally renounce your Canadian citizenship). Getting landed immigrant status in the first place can be a long process though. It is awarded to a limited number of people per year, based on a point system. The points are heavily loaded to favour family members (e.g. effectively infinite points for a close relative), but even so, it can take over 6 months for all the paper work to make the rounds.
gamiddleton@watmath.waterloo.edu (Guy Middleton) (02/23/88)
In article <17045@watmath.waterloo.edu> rbutterworth@watmath.waterloo.edu (Ray Butterworth) writes: > Once you have Canadian citizenship, even > if you move elsewhere and become a citizen of that country you don't > lose your Canadian citizenship (although in many places, e.g. USA, > to become a citizen of that country you must formally renounce your > Canadian citizenship). And of course, if you 'give up' your Canadian citizenship to become a U.S. citizen, you are *still* a Canadian, since the renunciation is made under American law, which does not apply here in Canada.
clewis@spectrix.UUCP (Chris R. Lewis) (02/25/88)
In article <17047@watmath.waterloo.edu> gamiddleton@watmath.waterloo.edu (Guy Middleton) writes: >And of course, if you 'give up' your Canadian citizenship to become a U.S. >citizen, you are *still* a Canadian, since the renunciation is made under >American law, which does not apply here in Canada. Do we really do this? I was under the impression that dual-citizenship in this country was only due to some "grandfather" clauses w.r.t. the Commonwealth and/or British immigrants. Further, in Canadian law I thought you can renounce your citizenship anytime you want without formal intervention. Surely we're not quite as wierd as Italy or the Eastern Bloc in this respect. Eg: Canadian citizens born in Italy are still subject to the draft if they vacation in Italy. Most of the Eastern Bloc considers even grandchildren of Canadian citizens born in the Eastern Bloc to be citizens of the Eastern Bloc. - My wife is of Ukrainian extraction and has been warned by External Affairs to *not* visit the home country while still of draft age - a few more years to go ... ;-) External Affairs can usually extricate people from these predicaments, but it ain't worth the couple of months being in jail. Regarding working in Canada: there are two routes: one is Work Permit (similar to "Green Card", the other is Landed Immigrant. I don't think either of them allow you to take Civil Service jobs or in CSIS (Canadian Intelligence Service). Other than that you should be able to take just about any kind of job. Landed Immigrant is "better", but considerably harder to obtain. You have to decide whether you are contemplating becoming a Canadian Citizen or not. If not, it's probably not worth the bother. Work Permits have further restrictions - for example, I'm pretty sure that you cannot get a CDN driver's license while on a Work Permit (though your US one will be honoured for a while). Also they need to be renewed every so-often - depends on the terms - I've seen them with periods of anything from 30 days to 2 years. You cannot usually renew more than twice and each time gets harder. Another thing to consider is "customs". Say you bring your car over the border. Well, good luck. Believe it or not, you may have to post a bond equal in value to the vehicle. (Isn't the Auto-Pact wonderful?) And god help you if you sell it here. No different going to the US either. There is a lot of public screaming going on about Landed Immigrant status. At the moment since you're from a Western country you would probably have a great deal of difficulty getting one. (The formal "regs" seem not too bad, but the usual interpretation seems totally backwards. Many of my friends have had run-ins with immigration over the years - you seem to have better luck if you're a convicted terrorist :-( For both Landed Immigrant and Work Permit you will need to be "sponsered", though the requirements differ somewhat. Either way you will probably have to have a prospective employer sign something saying that after some searching they weren't able to find someone with the qualifications they needed. Work permits are actually pretty easy to obtain as long as some company really wants you (a place I used to work used to bring in a couple of dozen per year from mainland China.... Outnumbered everyone else most of the time). While under the permit, you can take just about any job you want. Hire-Canadian policies are, except in a few places in Government, not mandatory (they're usually Union-driven where they exist) and are enforced if at all by the employer. (you're not trying to be the Dean of a University are you? ;-) Finally, the actual application must be made while in the US. Immigration takes a very dim view of people coming to this country on a visitor's permit (or, in your case you just decided to drive across the bridge) and attempting to change their status. You have to apply whilest in the US through a Canadian Embassy or Consulate. Good luck! -- Chris Lewis, Spectrix Microsystems Inc, UUCP: {uunet!mnetor, utcsri!utzoo, lsuc, yunexus}!spectrix!clewis Phone: (416)-474-1955
mark@sickkids.UUCP (Mark Bartelt) (02/26/88)
In article <8701@sunybcs.UUCP> ugpoltr1@sunybcs.UUCP (Jim Poltrone) writes: > [ various questions about working in / immigrating to Canada ] Jim's original posting resulted in a number of responses, all more or less accurate, with the occasional bit of minor misinformation that's probably unavoidable when lots of people comment on something. However, one recent posting, which contains a bunch of useful (and mostly accurate) information, nonetheless makes one misstatement which is worth correcting ... In article <463@spectrix.UUCP> clewis@spectrix.UUCP (Chris R. Lewis) writes: > Regarding working in Canada: there are two routes: one is Work Permit > (similar to "Green Card", the other is Landed Immigrant. Correct. > Landed Immigrant is "better", but considerably harder to obtain. Also correct. > You have > to decide whether you are contemplating becoming a Canadian Citizen or > not. If not, it's probably not worth the bother. Definitely not correct. See below. > Work Permits have > further restrictions - for example, I'm pretty sure that you cannot get > a CDN driver's license while on a Work Permit (though your US one will > be honoured for a while). This isn't the comment that I thought needed correction, but as long as I'm being picky (:-) ... Actually, the province *requires* that you get an Ontario driving license within some period of time after moving here (I forget how long; it's been nearly six years since I moved here, and besides, I don't drive anyway!). > Another thing to consider is "customs". Say you > bring your car over the border. Well, good luck. Believe it or not, > you may have to post a bond equal in value to the vehicle. (Isn't the > Auto-Pact wonderful?) And god help you if you sell it here. How true. If you post a bond when arriving on a work permit, you get your money back (without interest) when you (1) move back to the States, or (2) become a landed immigrant. However, in the latter case, you *still* are not allowed to sell your car in Canada for fifteen years. (Again, I forget whether the fifteen year period is counted from the model year of the car, or from the time you brought it into the country, or the time you became landed.) By the way, the amount of the bond you're required to post seems to be calculated by some rather arcane algorithm, which (fortunately) makes the amount collected less than the probable resale value of the car. When we moved here, my wife had (still has!) a 1980-model car, which cost around $7K (US$). Even though the car was only two years old, customs required only approximately $1300 (CDN$) as bond, which I suspect is quite a bit less than one could have gotten for the car at the time. > While under the permit, you can take just about any job you want. This is the major misstatement. Unless things have changed drastically since I immigrated, you most emphatically can not. This, in fact, is the major difference between the work permit and landed immigrant status, and is the major advantage of the latter. A work permit allows you to work at a specific job for a specific employer, for a specified period of time. You are *not* allowed to go work for somebody else. In fact, you aren't even allowed to change positions within the same organization without the approval of Canada Manpower. When you're a landed immigrant, you can work for whomever you please. You also have all the rights that citizens have, except for voting (and access to a few restricted sorts of jobs (most of which are various sorts of government jobs)). I could blather on for dozens of pages, but, rather than subject you all to my logorrhea, I'll instead invite anyone who wants to hear the gory details of my immigration experiences (a long, windy story, if ever there was one!) to give me a call at the phone number below, preferably early in the morning (between 6:00 and 8:00, or thereabouts). Mark Bartelt Hospital for Sick Children, Toronto 416/598-6442 UUCP: {utzoo,decvax,ihnp4}!sickkids!mark BITNET: mark@sickkids.utoronto
clewis@lsuc.uucp (Chris Lewis) (02/29/88)
In article <90@sickkids.UUCP> mark@sickkids.UUCP (Mark Bartelt) writes: >In article <8701@sunybcs.UUCP> ugpoltr1@sunybcs.UUCP (Jim Poltrone) writes: > >In article <463@spectrix.UUCP> clewis@spectrix.UUCP (Chris R. Lewis) writes: > >> You have >> to decide whether you are contemplating becoming a Canadian Citizen or >> not. If not, it's probably not worth the bother. > >Definitely not correct. See below. What I was driving at was that the difficulty in obtaining landed-immigrant status is such that you should treat it as an irrevocable commitment to move here permanently (or at least 5-10 years). Work permits are far easier to get and are more appropriate if you intend to go back to the US when a job opportunity arises. (In other words, do you want to be a Canadian or just work here?) > >> Work Permits have >> further restrictions - for example, I'm pretty sure that you cannot get >> a CDN driver's license while on a Work Permit (though your US one will >> be honoured for a while). > >This isn't the comment that I thought needed correction, but as long as >I'm being picky (:-) ... Actually, the province *requires* that you get >an Ontario driving license within some period of time after moving here >(I forget how long; it's been nearly six years since I moved here, and >besides, I don't drive anyway!). Isn't that what I said? I hedged a little ("I'm pretty sure"). I know that you can't get a driver's license on a Work Permit. With all the Chinese visitors we got we tried to get some of them licenses (after the training and so on) so they could drive to and from work for the 12-18 months they'd be here. The province wouldn't allow it. >> While under the permit, you can take just about any job you want. > >This is the major misstatement. I stand corrected. Thanks. -- Chris Lewis, Non-resident C-news Hacker, Real: {uunet!mnetor,utcsri!utzoo,ihnp4!utzoo,utcsri!utzoo}!spectrix!clewis Virtual: {same as above}!lsuc!clewis
mark@sickkids.UUCP (Mark Bartelt) (02/29/88)
>>> Chris Lewis (original) >> My reply to >>> > Chris's reply to >> >>> You have >>> to decide whether you are contemplating becoming a Canadian Citizen or >>> not. If not, it's probably not worth the bother. >> Definitely not correct. See below. > What I was driving at was that the difficulty in obtaining landed-immigrant > status is such that you should treat it as an irrevocable commitment to move > here permanently (or at least 5-10 years). Work permits are far easier to get > and are more appropriate if you intend to go back to the US when a job > opportunity arises. (In other words, do you want to be a Canadian or just > work here?) Well, even with that clarification I have to disagree, except for the case of someone who wanted to come for a year or so, then move back. For folks who want to move here for, say, three or four years, or even an indefinite period of time, I think it's well worth the effort to get landed. There are many people who have been here for decades, and haven't bothered to take Canadian citizenship. The problem with the bloody work permits is that they expire, and have to be renewed. And if, say, your employer drags its feet and fails to get all the necessary paperwork in on time, or if Canada Manpower loses your file (yes, *both* happened to me), you're stuck without a valid work permit, and it's illegal for your employer to pay you until the renewal gets processed. This is *definitely* more of a hassle than dealing with the bureaucracy to get yourself landed. >>> Work Permits have >>> further restrictions - for example, I'm pretty sure that you cannot get >>> a CDN driver's license while on a Work Permit (though your US one will >>> be honoured for a while). >> This isn't the comment that I thought needed correction, but as long as >> I'm being picky (:-) ... Actually, the province *requires* that you get >> an Ontario driving license within some period of time after moving here >> (I forget how long; it's been nearly six years since I moved here, and >> besides, I don't drive anyway!). > Isn't that what I said? I hedged a little ("I'm pretty sure"). I know > that you can't get a driver's license on a Work Permit. With all the > Chinese visitors we got we tried to get some of them licenses (after > the training and so on) so they could drive to and from work for the > 12-18 months they'd be here. The province wouldn't allow it. Hmm, interesting ... Maybe they treat Americans differently from people from overseas; some sort of driving-license reciprocity? We were here on work permits for the first year and a half or so, and, as I said, the province insisted that my wife dump her California license and get an Ontario one. PS: I suspect that by now everyone else is probably getting bored by all this. Maybe mail would be more appropriate from this point on ... Mark Bartelt Hospital for Sick Children 598-6442 {utzoo,utgpu,lsuc}!sickkids!mark
tjsmedley@watmum.waterloo.edu (Trevor J Smedley) (02/29/88)
In article <1988Feb28.223251.25666@lsuc.uucp> (Chris Lewis) writes: >I know that you can't get a driver's license on a Work Permit. A good friend of mine got an Ontario Driver's license on a Work Permit. The province would only let her use her German license for some restricted amount of time (I can't remember how long), and then she had to take the test and get an Ontario license. I thought it strange that she had to take the Ontario test (including having to have a beginners for two months and all that) when she had already had a German license for a quite a while, and a German license is considerably harder to get than one in Ontario. >With all the Chinese visitors we got we tried to get some of them >licenses (after the training and so on) so they could drive to and from >work for the 12-18 months they'd be here. The province wouldn't allow >it. Something is strange here. Sounds like one of these things where the rules change depending on who you are talking to, or perhaps which country you are coming from. Trevor J. Smedley University of Waterloo {decvax,allegra,ihnp4,utzoo}!watmum!tjsmedley
clewis@spectrix.UUCP (Chris R. Lewis) (03/02/88)
In article <3407@watcgl.waterloo.edu> tjsmedley@watmum.waterloo.edu (Trevor J Smedley) writes: >... >Something is strange here. Sounds like one of these things where the >rules change depending on who you are talking to, or perhaps which >country you are coming from. Or whether you had a license in the country that you came from. That might be part of it. -- Chris Lewis, Spectrix Microsystems Inc, UUCP: {uunet!mnetor, utcsri!utzoo, lsuc, yunexus}!spectrix!clewis Phone: (416)-474-1955
dont@xios.XIOS.UUCP (Don Taylor) (03/02/88)
I missed quite a few of the follow ups to this article, so I may be repeating
what has already been said, sorry.
I have been through this process myself (from the UK 10 years ago), I know
many others who have also immigrated to Canada, and on one occasion I helped
someone here already to get landed immigrant status. Just a few points:
1. Do not go the work permit route unless you absolutely have to and you are
quite prepared to leave the country at the end of the permit period. It is NOT
always easy for an employer to renew a visa; I know, I had to do it and I NEVERwant to do it again. The other problem is that you will place yourself
totally in the hands of your employer; if you have a falling out then you
either take what he dishes out to you, or you leave the country.
2. You have to apply for landed immigrant status from outside the country, thisis not to bad if you can hide in Boston for a few weeks, but I was trying to
help a guy from Hong Kong and it was tricky.
3. By far the best route to go is to line yourself up with a job with a large
organization with an HR department and insist upon them helping you to get
landed immigrant status for you BEFORE you come to Canada. It can be done in
about 6-8 weeks if all of the right paper-work and strings are pulled first.
Don't accept the offer of a work permit first to get you in, and then
help with the landed immigrant papers after you start working. At
least for most of the period of the work permit, your employer has no real
incentive to make you a landed immigrant. I would seriously doubt how capable
a very small company could be in getting you in unless they employ a
professional immigration lawyer.
4. You can become a Canadian citizen after 3 years of being in the country,
but you have to spend that 3 years in Canada, any substantial time spent
outside of Canada is added to the 3 year waiting period. There is some
advantage to being a Canadian citizen when you are abroad, if you get into
trouble then the Canadian embassy will help you a lot more than they will a
landed immigrant. I believe that they will refer landed immigrants back to
the embassy of their country of nationality. That does not make a lot of
difference for US citizens in most parts of the world, but I think there are
one or two places where it is safer to be Canadian.
As far as cost of living is concerned, I did not see anybody mention the
income tax differnce between the US and Canada; it is a lot, but that is part
of the cost of being Canadian. It is worth EVERY penny. Emigrating to Canada
was the best thing that I ever did, I should have done it earlier.
Best of luck,
Don.
--
Don Taylor,
XIOS Systems Corporation, ...!uunet!mnetor!dciem!nrcaer!xios!dont
1600 Carling Avenue, Suite 150,
Ottawa, Ontario.
K1Z 8R8 613-725-5411
Canada. steve@crcmar.crc.uucp (Steve Ardron) (03/07/88)
>> Regarding working in Canada: there are two routes: one is Work Permit >> (similar to "Green Card", the other is Landed Immigrant. I am not sure what this person actually meant to say, I may be missinterpreting it, but it needs clarifying either way. A Green Card is similar to Landed Immigrant in Canada, a Work Permit is similar to a Work Permit (L1, or I believe, Resident Alien status). I've been through the process both ways (U.K. citizen -> Canadian landed immigrant -> Can. citizen -> U.S. Green Card, I won't go any further, I don't want to lose my Britt/Can dual citizenship for the dubious pleasure of U.S. citizenship) and would definitely say it is easier to get into Canada then the States. Incidently, someone asked if Canada allows dual citizenship with anybody, and as far as I can tell, yes. I have heard of Czech/Canadian citizens, Dutch Canadians etc. aswell as the usual ones from other Commonwealth countries. And, I believe, if you are born in Canada, Canada allways regards you as Canadian, whether you renounced it or not. E.g. go to the U.S., get drafted, draft dodge to Canada, and Canada will allow you to work, won't expell you, will let you pay taxes :-) etc. The U.S. certainly won't recognize your Canadian citizenship, but Canada will. Stevie.