david (04/05/83)
OK PEOPLE!!!!!!!!
Looks like we did it now. Somehow somewhere someone has convinced
the powers that be that HARLEY needs help in selling their
product.(notice I didn't say motorcycle)
I've heard that Congress has passed the tariff law on Japanese
motorcycles. The going rate is from 4 to 45 % of their list.
Now I don't welcome Japanese competition as I work hard to
provide the best portable oscilloscopes I can in a marketplace
where the Japanese are tough. However, in my biased opinion,
I think we offer a superior product.
In the case of Harley we are stuck with an ancient design
that costs over 5000 dollars for the low cost models.
If someone wants a Harley motorcycle (ugh), they do not buy
because of cost, performance, comfort, reliability, or
rideability, they buy because it is a HARLEY. If there were
a remote attempt at competition by Harley for my consumer
dollar I might be interested but SHEESH!!
I believe, in these not so good economic times, that this
ruling will hurt the entire industry. Many, many bike shops
are not Harley alone (who could survive). The local shop here
in Beaverton, Ore. sells Harley, Kawasaki, and Honda.
I wouldn't be surprised if this place dropped the Harley line
so fast they would junk the remaining showroom models.
Mail me your replies and I will send copies to my Congressmen.
You can't force a Harley down my driveway,
David Hayes
teklabs!tekid!davidkar (04/09/83)
I agree that the tariff on Japanese bikes is absurd. Maybe the problem with Harley-Davidson is that they're owned by a company that makes bowling balls and golf clubs. Seriously, when American companies begin to make a quality product that people are interested in buying, and at a price they can afford, then the only tariffs that will be needed will be to protect companies in the countries into which American goods are being imported by the boatload. If manufacturers can- not compete with other companies offering comparable products, they deserve to go out of business. This is what the "free market" is all about. If they cannot compete because of external forces over which they have no control (unions, for example) then they still deserve to go out of business, although the fault lies less with management than before. This is how these non-market forces are regulated by the market. If they cannot compete because foreign companies are offering products that American buyers simply like better, then they deserve to go out of business for being stupid. Ken Reek, Rochester Institute of Technology ucbvax!allegra!rochester!ritcv!kar PS: views expressed are mine, and not necessarily shared by management
hsc (04/12/83)
Harley-Davidson is strictly a motorcycle company; they bought themselves free of AMF (the bowling-ball people) over a year ago. It may be true that the Japanese make better bikes (my wife and I ride Hondas). It is also true, though, that Japanese bikes are available below fair market price because Japanese companies have a full-employment, full-production policy. The Japanese MUST keep producing bikes, even if the bikes are not selling. The result is a backlog of over ONE MILLION Japanese bikes in this country, including a lot of new 1982 models. This oversupply naturally forces prices down. The intent of the Japanese is not to kill Harley, just to keep their assembly lines moving. The effect, though, is "dumping." Now, I like it when economic forces bring down bike prices, but it ISN'T "fair free-market competition." The Japanese companies can afford to break even (or even lose a little) on the first million bikes they sell in 1983 if they can make a normal profit on the second million. Harley just isn't a big enough company to play that game. Harvey S. Cohen 1C314 American Bell, Lincroft, NJ 07748 (201)576-6059 hogpc!hsc
jack (04/16/83)
One Harley rider I've talked to and another who contributed to this net used "jap" for Japanese. One has to suspect that some people buy that make more for nationalistic reasons than out of preference for the way the bike is made. I think my Yamaha contributes to the high standard of living of one American -- me. If Americans who build motorcycles or anything else want to raise their standard of living, let them contribute a superior product.
iz521 (04/16/83)
Not to defend Harley's proposed tariff or even their bikes, but the
letter saying that if Harley could not sell their bikes at a comparible
price to the Japenese's, they should go broke, obviously hadn't
thought too much about the issue. It is pretty much common knowledge
that the Japanese and other foreign countries have tariffs on American
products going into their countries. Also this 'free market', of which
the letter spoke is the same free market which forces American companies
to pay 'comfortable' wages to their employees. The Japenese wages
don't even come close to the union set wages of America.
Well maybe Harley isn't worth it, so let's say we let them die. We
should probably let Chrysler and the other American car companies
die too (after all nobody wants to buy their products). Of course
the steel companies go too, since their will be no demand left for
their steel, except in Japan but Japan has a tariff, so that takes
care of the steel companies. Not much left, but the rest will die
too, and probably the whole country with them.
This is ridiculous, of course, we would never let it go that far
but I, for one, am curious as to how far you will let it go. Still
I'm not defending the proposed tariff, since I know nothing about
beyond what I have read in net.cycles, but many of the reasons given
against the tariff were faulty, and I hope I have, at least given
some of you reason to look beyond your bank accounts when you think
about the tariff.
R. Smithavie (04/17/83)
"How can any true American have bad fellings about the import motorcycle tariff? I feel that it's high time we gave the Japanese a taste of their own medicine. I guess that a lot of people don't realize the incredibly high tariffs placed on American products sold in Japan, including motorcycles." The issue here is not the sale of American products in Japan, but rather the sale of Japanese products in America. In either case, it just doesn't seem right (to me) to raise tariffs to keep foreign products at the same price as domestic products. This goes for autos and any other product, not just motorcycles. It is true that other countries, especially Japan, allow companies to produce many products at lower costs than the U.S. In the U.S., we do the opposite, we have high powered unions which demand higher pay and better work conditions, raising the cost of the final product, while lowering production. (How many of you have actually worked with union people, the union people I have worked with in the past could only think about when their next break would be. Oh boy, I can feel those flames coming!) The U.S. also sets more requirements on U.S. industries, such as environmental control. Don't get me wrong... we do need environment control... but enough is enough. How about if Harley trys to be competitive with it's opponents. Many people have already said that they just don't like Harleys, regardless of price. How about if Harley makes what the consumer wants, at a competitive price, then maybe they can sell some bikes. A high tariff will just cause us to pay more for the bikes we are going to buy anyway, and lets Harley get away with producing an inferior bike at an exorbitant price. Avadis Tevanian, Jr. (proud owner of a Kawasaki) rochester!avie avie@rochester
swatt (04/17/83)
What tariffs Japan imposes on importation of US motorcycles affects the price in Japan of motorcycles, not the price in the US. Tariffs DIRECTLY benefit manufacturers and only indirectly benefit consumers, on the theory that a thriving domestic industry will, in the long run, provide more competition. Even the apologists for tariffs admit they are a temporary expedient to protect a developing domestic industry from established foreign competition. However, it seems to me that Japanese industry is not in any great need of protection, and hence the tariffs on imported US goods should be eased. In this context, the motorcycle tariff can be viewed as bargaining leverage: "you lower yours, and we'll lower ours." "Dumping", unlike Japanese import duties, represents unfair domestic competetion. I have heard these charges, but haven't seen them documented. In the steel industry, which has been heavily investigated, it has been shown that the Japanese produce a ton of steel for significantly less HOURS of labor than US companies, which makes charges about lower wage scales moot. Dumping is also a short-range tactic; if you sell a product for less than it costs you to make it, you lose money. This can only continue for a limited period. The structure of industry-government relations in Japan is sufficiently different from that in the US to make investigations into government "subsidy" of industry difficult. Our own situation has a great deal more govenment support of industry than "free trade" proponents care to admit. Take government-funded research (ARPA), or the entire NASA program, which by law must transfer technology to the private sector. However, back to motorcycles. Japanese bikes made available for the first time to the average US consumer: disk brakes (Honda 750, in '69 I think), now standard shaft drive (Honda Gold Wing, Honda CX500), now quite common in the 650 and up displacements. vastly increased reliability, smoother operation, non-oil leaking, etc. and in the process have changed the public image of motorcycles to the point they're almost respectable. Honda started out as a garage operation using surplus generator engines and revolutionized the industry. No domestic manufacturer, certainly not Harley-Davidson, has done a fraction of what the Japanese companies have done to provide basic engineering quality at a price people can afford. Frankly, all the complaints about "sending American dollars to Japan" is malarky. As a direct result of increased motorcycle sales in the US, lead by Japanese bikes, more Americans are employed in the various service industries associated with motorcycles. Parts are stocked in the US, repairs are made in the US, accessories are made and sold in the US, advertising campaigns are created and carried out in the US, etc. The Japanese companies can probably claim no small credit for INCREASING the net number of motorcycle industry jobs for Americans. If I had the money, I'd own a BMW. Since I don't, I have to settle for second best. - Alan S. Watt (Suzuki GS850 owner)