an@hou2h.UUCP (A.NGUYEN) (05/22/84)
-- Let's get something straight. Except for some cruiser-styled bikes (funny handlebars), I've *never* met a bike I didn't like! ------------------------------------------------------------------------- / I have always believed that almost every bike is enjoyable on its / / own level, and I would gladly take any bike over no bike at all! / / It's only when you talk absolute performance that one motorcycle / / is superior to another. / ------------------------------------------------------------------------- And now, here's the play by play: > From Darryl (I shift on the right!) Richman ...!cca!ima!ism780!darryl > The age of the four has come and gone three times this century! > Are you sure it's going to hang around this time? The last time it was around (MV Agusta GP bike) manufacturing technology (read Japanese ingenuity) wasn't good enough to make it available to the average Joe Biker. Before that (Henderson, Indian inline 4's), engine and chassis technology wasn't good enough to give it a clear cut advantage over anything else. > Raw horsepower has NOTHING to do with the tractability > of a motorcycle. Who said it does? Tractability is usually understood to be good low and medium rpm torque and clean carburetion (no stumbles). > Anyone who buys a motorcycle for the 1/4 mile times either only > rides a few weekends a year, or gets tired of the damn thing > because its so much effort in traffic. I happen to have bought my last bike with 1/4 mile time as one of the points considered. I have also put 21K miles on it 2 years, been around the Great Lakes (3K miles) in two weeks, and ridden at least one day *EVERY* month for the time I've had it. I learned to ride motorcycles by riding my first bike to school everyday, thru the best of Manhattan traffic! My credentials as Hardcore Biker are *impeccable*! > In many aspects handling is at odds with speed, and the compromise > that you make shows how you plan (or don't plan!) to ride. Handling is generally accepted as the ability to get around a curved section of road quickly. There have been plenty of power-laden bikes that are evil handlers (any Kawasaki two-stroke triple ..), but by itself, handling is not necessarily mutually exclusive with power. I don't recall making any compromises here. I want my cake and by God I want to eat it, too! > I have yet to understand why 120 horsepower is ANY better than 70 > -- both will move you out of harm's way at about the same rate. Don't tell me you want your 70 horses *JUST* so you can "move out of harm's way." If I want to outrun a Buick gone amok, I won't need anymore than 20 horses. If you want to outrun the man in blue, I suggest you consider organized racing -- it's much safer. If you just plain wants 70 horses to "move out of harm's way," I can recommend a good mortician who handles layaway plans. > Lots of development money has been spent already on the big singles. > They were the proving grounds for a great many ideas incorporated > into multi's. That's precisely the point. Money "has been" spent, but no longer is "being" spent. The thumpers had their day in the sun, and now they have reached the limits attainable with current technology. Maybe someday when carbon fiber pistons and plastic cases become practical, thumpers will again be able to produce decent horsepower for street use, and believe me, I'll be the first on line! Hey, I'm for anything that *works* and works *well*! > From david@tekig.UUCP (David Hayes) > An SR500 Yamaha might not instill the confidence a VF500 would, but > relatively few riders .. could use the Yamaha to its limits [anyway]. Amen! > To find the limits, you have to have exceeded them at least once. Aye, and exceeded them under true battle conditions, too! No novice tipovers-in-the-parking-lot here! All those who have, raise your hand ... > From Grego Sanguinetti ..!tektronix!teklds!grego > Well now the SR isn't really so bad, it's just not too good! Thanx Grego, maybe now they'll understand what I'm trying to say. > Thumpers can go fast. You guys in the Northeast should go up to Loudon (NH) sometime and watch Dave Roper of Team Obsolete racing his Norton Manx and other assorted relics. The man can fly! Au "Rider? Whatsa a rider? Won't the bike go fast by itself?!"
darryl@ism780.UUCP (05/25/84)
#R:hou2h:-46100:ism780:15800011:000:512 ism780!darryl May 24 07:29:00 1984 >> To find the limits, you have to have exceeded them at least once. > >Aye, and exceeded them under true battle conditions, too! No novice >tipovers-in-the-parking-lot here! Could I ask just one favor of you? Please don't be exceeding the limits when I come around that turn the other way. Thanks very much, Darryl Richman ...!cca!ima!ism780 P.S.: This is why bikers get such a bad image, and why legislators the country over are trying to find new and creative ways to get rid of them.
darryl@ism780.UUCP (05/25/84)
#R:hou2h:-46100:ism780:15800012:000:4520 ism780!darryl May 24 10:41:00 1984 -- I promise to hold my tongue (fingers?) after this one, last flame. But I just can't let this subject sit as it is... >/ It's only when you talk absolute performance that one motorcycle / >/ is superior to another. / How do you define "absolute performance"? Does a GS1150ES beat the Interceptor? (Yes on the quarter mile, no on a road race course). >> The age of the four has come and gone three times this century! >> Are you sure it's going to hang around this time? > >The last time it was around (MV Agusta GP bike) manufacturing >technology (read Japanese ingenuity) wasn't good enough to make it >available to the average Joe Biker. Before that (Henderson, Indian >inline 4's), engine and chassis technology wasn't good enough to give >it a clear cut advantage over anything else. Yes, but how will motorcycle companies react to tightening smog laws, higher mpg cars, and import quotas? All of these factors tend to push towards less moving parts and smaller displacements, which in turn are in the opposite philosophical direction from multiple cylinders. Are you going to buy an RE-5 when they come out again? :-) >> Anyone who buys a motorcycle for the 1/4 mile times either only >> rides a few weekends a year, or gets tired of the damn thing >> because its so much effort in traffic. > >I happen to have bought my last bike with 1/4 mile time as one of >the points considered. [...] > >> In many aspects handling is at odds with speed, and the compromise >> that you make shows how you plan (or don't plan!) to ride. Thanks for making my point--you did make a compromise by purchasing your bike with the 1/4 mile time as ONLY ONE of the aspects you considered important. (I see that you have a KZ550, a mid size bike that is in itself a compromise between power and weight). >> I have yet to understand why 120 horsepower is ANY better than 70 >> -- both will move you out of harm's way at about the same rate. > >Don't tell me you want your 70 horses *JUST* so you can "move out of >harm's way." If I want to outrun a Buick gone amok, I won't need >anymore than 20 horses. That's right. Doesn't take much to stay in front of most any auto these days. So why do you NEED 6 times more horsepower? If you can't scrape the corners and in general have fun on a lower hp bike, how can more horses improve the situation? Is it really that much of a thrill to feel the front end lighten up as your speedo pegs? >> Lots of development money has been spent already on the big singles. >> They were the proving grounds for a great many ideas incorporated >> into multi's. > >That's precisely the point. Money "has been" spent, but no longer >is "being" spent. The thumpers had their day in the sun, and now >they have reached the limits attainable with current technology. > >> From david@tekig.UUCP (David Hayes) >> An SR500 Yamaha might not instill the confidence a VF500 would, but >> relatively few riders .. could use the Yamaha to its limits [anyway]. > >Amen! Seems to me that a bike that is making use of today's technology has sufficient power and handling characteristics to keep most anyone's knuckles white. The fact that motorcycle companies have been providing this in singles longer than in fours gives them the opportunity to have worked out a lot more bugs. As to whether this holds true in the real world, some companies pay more attention to their past than others. OK, I'm through flaming over this. My last comment on the subject is this: do what you like (you certainly will anyhow), but consider that there are other people out there who would like to continue riding motorcycles, but may be prohibited because of a few irresponsible types who see the commercials on the tube act the same on the public roads. I AM NOT SAYING THAT YOU, or anyone else commenting here, ARE A MEMBER OF THAT GROUP. I AM saying that members of that group are self-limiting, and that the newsworthiness of their limitations gives motorcyclists in general a black eye. I wish that motorcycles weren't advertised and sold using the currency of raw horsepower, because the general public doesn't like it one little bit. New York city is trying again to outlaw motorcycles after dark. St. Louis recently repeled a motorcycle ban inside the city limits. If you don't think these incidents are serious, then you aren't a serious biker. Ride safe and keep the rubber side down! Darryl Richman ...!cca!ima!ism780!darryl