rls@ihu1g.UUCP (r.l. schieve) (07/19/85)
Over the last several years here in the extreme western suburbs of Chicago, it has become quite common to install sensors in the road at traffic signals to help control the lights. An example being that the left turn arrow does not come on if a car is not waiting in the left turn lane for several seconds before the light is due to change. Notice that I said a "car"! At least half of these sensors don't seem to be able to tell if a motorcycle is sitting right over it. This was annoying when I had a relatively small XL350 but I figured a larger street bike would have enough mass to trigger any sensor. Well I got my strret bike last year and half of the traffic light sensors still ignor its presence. It is bothersome but liveable to miss an ocassional turn arrow but there is one light on the way home and a few others I have passed through that rely on the sensors to simply give you a green light. If cars are around they change the light for you if not I have waited as long as 5 minutes at a completely empty intersection and given up and went through the red light. Have other riders noticed this or are all the stupid lights just on the roads I ride? Any ideas on who to complain to or what can be done? Rick Schieve ...ihnp4!ihu1g!rls
cuda@ihuxf.UUCP (Mike Nelson) (07/20/85)
> All kinds of stuff about stupid smart lights. > > Have other riders noticed this or are all the stupid lights just on > the roads I ride? Any ideas on who to complain to or what can be > done? > > Rick Schieve > ...ihnp4!ihu1g!rls It was the same in Kansas City when I was in school. I started on a Suzuki GN400 (~250lbs) and only 20% of the lights would trip. Sometimes it seemed temperature had an effect. I could trip some lights when it was hot but not when it was cold. I traded up to a Honda 750ltd ~(500lbs) and the ratio of lights tripped improved but not substantially. I got to where I would wait one cycle of the lights and if no cars were coming to bail me out I'd just run the red light. My supervisor was stopped once for running a light in this situation. The cop finally let him go after a good verbal lashing. Does anyone know how these sensors work? I had all ways assumed it was tripped by weight until a friend said he always thought they were magneticly tripped. Mike Nelson ihuxf!cuda
gadfly@ihu1m.UUCP (Gadfly) (07/20/85)
-- > Over the last several years here in the extreme western suburbs > of Chicago, it has become quite common to install sensors in the > road at traffic signals to help control the lights. An example > being that the left turn arrow does not come on if a car is not > waiting in the left turn lane for several seconds before the > light is due to change. Notice that I said a "car"! At least > half of these sensors don't seem to be able to tell if a motorcycle > is sitting right over it. This was annoying when I had a relatively > small XL350 but I figured a larger street bike would have enough > mass to trigger any sensor. > light. > > Have other riders noticed this or are all the stupid lights just on > the roads I ride? Any ideas on who to complain to or what can be > done? > > Rick Schieve No, it's all over. I'm also in Chicago west 'burbs now, but the same thing happens in Wisconsin, and I noticed the phenomenon in California while touring on an old Kawasaki A-1 Samurai (that's a story) back in 81. Sometimes it's even worse than the turn signal--there's a few pressure activated lights in Madison that (late at night) simply stay red. Your choices are (1) get off and push the pedestrian's walk button, or (2) run out of patience and run the sucker. I've been stopped by cops who caught me doing (2), but they've all bought my story. ("But officer, I waited 4 or 5 minutes and it just wouldn't turn green.") OK, so it was 4 or 5 seconds--who's counting? -- *** *** JE MAINTIENDRAI ***** ***** ****** ****** 20 Jul 85 [2 Thermidor An CXCIII] ken perlow ***** ***** (312)979-7753 ** ** ** ** ..ihnp4!iwsl8!ken *** ***
rls@ihu1g.UUCP (r.l. schieve) (07/22/85)
> Does anyone know how these sensors work? I had all ways assumed it was > tripped by weight until a friend said he always thought they were > magneticly tripped. > > > Mike Nelson > ihuxf!cuda People that responded to my original posting seem to agree that it is the metal in a bike that trips the sensors not its weight. When installing the sensor it is simply just a loop of wire that does not care how many layers of asphalt are put on top of it. Many have said that if the sensor loop is visable to stop or follow an edge of the loop. I had always tried to park in the center of the loop and will have to try the edge method. Also someone suggested getting the sensor sensitivity re-adjusted. I called the highway department and they said it could be done and the particular intersection that I complained about would be looked into. I wonder how long it will take...... Rick Schieve ...ihnp4!ihu1g!rls
dob@ihlpa.UUCP (Daniel M. O'Brien) (07/22/85)
> > All kinds of stuff about stupid smart lights. > > > > Rick Schieve > > ...ihnp4!ihu1g!rls > > Does anyone know how these sensors work? I had all ways assumed it was > tripped by weight until a friend said he always thought they were > magneticly tripped. > > Mike Nelson > ihuxf!cuda The sensors are just a giant inductive coil (3 ~ 4 turns) buried in the ground. The coil is part of a tuned R-F network. When your car (and occasionally your motorcycle) drives over the coil it detunes the network causing a current draw which is detected by other parts of the circuit causing a relay to close. I have the best luck tripping the lights if I stop, not centered in the middle of the giant coil, but over an edge (with my front and rear tires on top of the edge of the coil (most coil loops are square)). --- Daniel M. O'Brien (ihnp4!ihlpa!dob) AT&T Bell Laboratories IH 4A-258, x 4782 Naperville-Wheaton Road Naperville, IL 60566
donch@teklabs.UUCP (Don Chitwood) (07/22/85)
The 'smart light' ignoring motorcycles is a major complaint of mine. I'm prepared with a mentally canned defense should a trooper stop me when I "run" a permanently red light. However, even tho my final defense would be an offer to prove my case by demonstrating the light's default, I'm sure that most cops take the rules literally. In my area, Portland, Oregon, the person to contact is the traffic control officer in the local Office/Bureau of Streets/Roads. The smart lights ARE adjustable for sensitivity. The tradeoff with sensitivity apparently has to do with false triggering from vehicles in adjacent lanes that may be occupying more than their own lane. You might also call your local police office and ask them for their recommendation, both as to what to do when caught in the situation by a light, and who to contact for relief. Don Chitwood Tek Labs Tektronix, Inc.
jerem@tekgvs.UUCP (Jere Marrs) (07/22/85)
The sensors in the pavement work through the perturbing effect
of the magnetic susceptibility of your vehicle on the Q of a high-frequency
resonant circuit. As your machine gets in the vicinity of the wires, it
permeates the magnetic field and changes the inductance of the circuit.
The electronics sense this and detect the presence of the machine. Ferrous
metals are the most effective materials for permeating the field. Size also
affects the field perturbation. Motorcycles are small and their content of
ferrous metals is rather low making it less easy to detect.
If you can see where the sensor wires are in the pavement, you
can increase the probability of being detected by judicious choice of
position. If the sensor wires are in a diamond shape, place your front
wheel at the top of the diamond and your rear wheel at the bottom. In
other words, straddle the diamond symmetrically. If they have repaved
the road since installing the wires, good luck!
If the wires are laid out in a large rectangle, try to align
your wheels on top of one of the wires to maximize the effect.
It *is* possible for them to adjust the detection threshold
such that these measures are unnecessary even for a motorcycle. It
is unlikely, however, that they will attach very much importance to
our problem (my experience in Washington county Oregon). Harangue them.
I, too, have waited through several cycles of the light to
then run the light as the only alternative. After having been cited for
it, I appeared in court and the judge threw it out of court and
reprimanded the officer. I haven`t been bothered since. I'm sure
that experience is an exception.
Locally, we have some *new* kind of detectors which, I believe,
are infrared. However they work, they appear to work for motorcycles.
A new plague for motorcyclists here are the roads that have
been "eaten" by those machines that chomp up the surface for recycling.
The surface is scraped up and trucked off leaving a variable, grooved
surface which is hell on two wheels. The edge is about 1 to 2 inches
high making the exit from freeways so treated a life-risking
experience. They think it is so neat to be able to scrape the old
surface off and then take their time about resurfacing. They regard
the "scraped-off" condition as usable until they`re good and ready
for resurfacing. Around here, that represents months. I am avoiding
most of the freeways for that reason.
On a positive note, many of the secondary roads are lots of
fun, however.
Jere M. Marrs
Tektronix, Inc.
Beaverton, Oregon
{ihnp4,ucbvax,...}!tektronix!tekgvs!jeremhamilton@uiucuxc.Uiuc.ARPA (07/22/85)
"Your choices are (1) get off and push the pedestrian's walk button,
or (2) run out of patience and run the sucker."
actually, there's a 3rd choice when (1) is not available and (2) is
undesirable: 3) right-turn-on-red followed by a u-turn.
i usually only have this problem (in downstate illinois) late at night,
so i usually opt for (2). i have talked to the police about it, and
while they expressed sympathy, they wouldn't bless the technique. it's
up to the individual cop to be either reasonable or ornery...
wayne ({decvax,ucbvax}!pur-ee!uiucdcs!uiucuxc!)hamiltondhk@hp-pcd.UUCP (dhk) (07/22/85)
I haven't tried this yet, but I read in a Kawasaki magazine that putting your sidestand down (if you can see where the wire runs through the pavement) will trip an automatic light about half the time. Don't know if it works but it would be easy to try. Dustin Kassman !hplabs!hp-pcd!dhk Hewlett-Packard Company Corvallis, Oregon PS. In California (probably Oregon, too) if you park your bike and walk over to trip the signal by using the pedistrian crosswalk button you can get ticketed for 1) parking more than six inches (or some such distance) from a curb, 2) leaving a vehicle in an intersection, and possibly 3) improperly operating a traffic signal. I heard that here in Oregon, if you wait through two cycles of the light and you proceed with care/caution/common sense/etc you may go through the red light BUT I have not read this in any legal document so I am hesitant to try it.
davem@tekchips.UUCP (Dave Menicosy) (07/23/85)
There are many traffic-actuated lights in the area where I live and work. Whenever one of the sensors does not pick up my motorcycle (it's a 1000cc bike, so there's no shortage of metal for the sensor to pick up), I call the organization that is in charge of maintaining the traffic signals, and make sure they know that it isn't working correctly. It's a little difficult to find out who's responsible for the lights. In my situation, I start with the town I live in. If they claim not to be responsible, the county traffic engineer gets a call. If he's not the one, then the state highways department is next. Notice that they're not always glad to hear from me, but I've seen them out there with a police motorcycle checking the signal out after I've called. I stopped to chat with the guys one time, and apparently my call prompted them to go adjust the signal. I've seen the motorcycle police in my area run through traffic actuated lights that I've called to complain about -- light is still red, and the officer doesn't use his lights or siren. Notice that it's a town cop running through a state-maintained light. Oregon has a law that limits the length of time for a traffic light to cycle through its routine. After that amount of time has passed, I usually proceed *CAUTIOUSLY* through the intersection. It'll be interesting when I finally get a ticket and have to go talk to a judge about running red lights when the signal refuses to acknowledge me. Has anybody actually had to take that one to court? If so, I think there are a bunch of motorcyclists who'd like to hear a little about what the outcome was. Dave Menicosy 503-245-3930 ..tektronix!tekchips!davem 503-627-6197
lonetto@phri.UUCP (Michael Lonetto) (07/24/85)
> > All kinds of stuff about stupid smart lights. > > > > Have other riders noticed this or are all the stupid lights just on > > the roads I ride? Any ideas on who to complain to or what can be > > done? > > > > Rick Schieve > > ...ihnp4!ihu1g!rls > > It was the same in Kansas City when I was in school. I started on a > Suzuki GN400 (~250lbs) and only 20% of the lights would trip. Sometimes > it seemed temperature had an effect. I could trip some lights when it > was hot but not when it was cold. I traded up to a Honda 750ltd ~(500lbs) My favorite tricks in Princeton (where my 750 tripped hardly any lights) were 1) Pull over onto the curb (low curbs) and use the pedestrian push button. 2) Make a right turn on red followed by a U-turn and another right. 3) Run the light. 4) Pull forward far enough for the car behind me to trip the light(sometimes confuses the less observant driver). 1-3 are best saved for midnight and beyond (and look both ways for sleeping bears :-)) -- ____________________ Michael Lonetto Public Health Research Institute, 455 1st Ave, NY, NY 10016 (allegra!phri!lonetto) "BUY ART, NOT COCAINE"
faunt@hplabs.UUCP (Doug Faunt) (07/24/85)
> > > All kinds of stuff about stupid smart lights. > > > I had the same problem with two lights in the vicinity here. I called around, found the reponsible office for each of them, and wrote a letter to each complaining about the adjustment, copies of which I then CARRIED with me to show to any traffic officer if necessary. One they fixed (Santa Clara County), one they didn't (Mountain View), and I never got stopped, so I don't know if it would have helped to have the letters to show to the officer or the court. -- ....!hplabs!faunt faunt%hplabs@csnet-relay.ARPA HP is not responsible for anything I say here. In fact, what I say here may have been generated by a noisy telephone line.
bobn@bmcg.UUCP (Bob Nebert) (07/25/85)
> Over the last several years here in the extreme western suburbs > of Chicago, it has become quite common to install sensors in the > road at traffic signals to help control the lights. An example > being that the left turn arrow does not come on if a car is not > waiting in the left turn lane for several seconds before the > light is due to change. Notice that I said a "car"! At least > half of these sensors don't seem to be able to tell if a motorcycle > is sitting right over it. This was annoying when I had a relatively > small XL350 but I figured a larger street bike would have enough > mass to trigger any sensor. > ] Well the way it was explained to me is is that it is NOT the ] mass or weight of the object but the height. The sensors put ] out a field so high ( look at my hands :-) about a foot. Cars ] trigger it but most bikes are to high to interfer (sp) with ] the signal. ] ] now your honor, this is the way it really was..... ] Bob Nebert ] sdcsvax!bmcg!bobn
hsc@mtuxo.UUCP (h.cohen) (07/25/85)
The most lasting, effective way to deal with a sensor that doesn't see motorcycles is to tell the police. I did this for one light in my town and one in the next town. (Different police depts.) Neither light would trigger on my humongous GL650I/Motorvation Formula II sidecar rig. Both were adjusted, and have worked fine ever since. On the spot, try finding the sensor (look for the seam in the pavement) and put your sidestand right on it. Or tow an anvil. Harvey S. Cohen Lincroft, NJ
ron@wjvax.UUCP (Ron Christian) (07/26/85)
In article <658@ihu1g.UUCP> rls@ihu1g.UUCP (r.l. schieve) writes: >...It is bothersome but liveable >to miss an ocassional turn arrow but there is one light on the way >home and a few others I have passed through that rely on the sensors >to simply give you a green light. If cars are around they change >the light for you if not I have waited as long as 5 minutes at a >completely empty intersection and given up and went through the red >light. >Have other riders noticed this or are all the stupid lights just on >the roads I ride? Any ideas on who to complain to or what can be >done? > Rick Schieve ***** Wow! I thought I was the only one that was irritated by this. Yes, friends, it is impossible to cross some intersections without a car along to trip the lights. If you happen to get an intersection with a 'no right turn on red' and it's late at night, you are trapped. Blow the light and that cop in the parking lot over there makes the city an easy $40. I have this fantasy of getting out of the ticket by claiming the light was busted. (If I'm sitting at the intersection for an unreasonable amount of time and the light doesn't change, it's broke by definition, right?) But I have a feeling this won't wash with the judge. Anyone have practical experiance with this type of situation? What do *I* do in this type of situation? Why, I stay there until the morning traffic releases me, of course. Don't want to break the law. (:-) (Actually, I usually get off and press the 'walk' button. But it's a pain and can be a traffic hazard.) -- __ Ron Christian (Watkins-Johnson Co. San Jose, Calif.) {pesnta,twg,ios,qubix,turtlevax,tymix,vecpyr,certes,isi}!wjvax!ron
wmartin@brl-tgr.ARPA (Will Martin ) (07/26/85)
In article <343@phri.UUCP> lonetto@phri.UUCP (Michael Lonetto) writes: >2) Make a right turn on red followed by a U-turn and another right. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ???? | ???? | ( \___ \ ) ___/ / ( ^ Direction of travel | | | ??? This will get you to the *left*?
srt@ucla-cs.UUCP (07/27/85)
<ok, drop that gun!>
This has been discussed a few times in net.bicycle, where the problem is
even more extreme. I believe that BICYCLING magaazine actually did an
article on it some time last year. From what I recall of the article and
resultant discussion, the best tactic is to place your bike (either kind)
on top of and parallel to one of the long cuts where the sensors are.
The typical sensor is laid out like so:
---+ __ +---
| / \ |
| | | |
| | |<-- "A" |
| \__/ |
| |
^
|
+---- Sensor, usually indicated by cuts in pavement
filled with tar.
You want to position yourself over the cut marked "A". (Somewhat harder
if the sensors were installed when the street was laid, since there won't
be any cuts to guide placement.)
I've also had some success (on a bicycle) with rolling back and forth.
Personally, I've never had a problem on my cycle.
-- Scottskinner@saber.UUCP (Robert Skinner) (07/31/85)
> > All kinds of stuff about stupid smart lights. > > > > Have other riders noticed this or are all the stupid lights just on > > the roads I ride? Any ideas on who to complain to or what can be > > done? > > > > Rick Schieve > > ...ihnp4!ihu1g!rls > > > Does anyone know how these sensors work? I had all ways assumed it was > tripped by weight until a friend said he always thought they were > magneticly tripped. > > > Mike Nelson > ihuxf!cuda I used to live in Austin, TX, where Eagle Signal (of traffic light fame) is located. This is supposedly the straight poop from them via the local rag: The smart signals are magneticly tripped. The sensors are imbedded where the front most car should stop, and there may be more. You can see them if you look closely and learn what to look for. They are shaped like this: /--\ | | | | \--/ and are about the size of an economy car. The trick is to place the maximum amount of metal directly over the sensor. Obviously, you want to stop over the right or left side. (You shouldn't be stopping right in the middle anyway, because there will be oil and grease there.) I drive a 750, and this has worked well for me in TX and CA. I get caught only occasionally now. Hope it works for you. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Name: Robert Skinner Mail: Saber Technology, 2381 Bering Drive, San Jose, California 95131 AT&T: (408) 945-0518, or 945-9600 (mesg. only) UUCP: ...{decvax,ucbvax}!decwrl!saber!skinner ...{amd,ihnp4,ittvax}!saber!skinner
brown@aero.ARPA (Leonard Brown) (08/05/85)
In article <1721@saber.UUCP> skinner@saber.UUCP (Robert Skinner) writes: > The smart signals are magneticly tripped. The sensors are imbedded > where the front most car should stop, and there may be more. > The trick is to place the > maximum amount of metal directly over the sensor. Obviously, you > want to stop over the right or left side. (You shouldn't be stopping > right in the middle anyway, because there will be oil and grease > there.) In West Hollywood, one turns left from Santa Monica Blvd. onto La Cienega Blvd. by veering right onto Holloway, then turning left onto La Cienega (Santa Monice veers left at this point). Sort of like this: ---------------------| |---------| |------------- La Cienega ---------------------|S. |---------\S S S|-------------- | M.| | | \ \ | | \B \ | |<-Holloway \l \ | | \v \ | | \d \ | | \ \ | | Coming home Sunday morning early, I encountered the sensors marked S in the drawing. They were mounted in the middle of the pedestrian crosswalk, and you could only activate them if you illegally entered the crosswalk. Of course, at 4AM I did, and my 480 pounds of metal and plastic (Suzuki GS650G) didn't cause the light to change. Fortunately, a car came from the other direction on Holloway soon enough to solve the problem before the Sheriff's patrol could catch me running the light.