bennison@clt.DEC (Victor Bennison - DTN 381-2156) (01/26/86)
>> I too had similar problems with 47th Street. Unfortunately, I didn't use a >> credit card and ended up getting beat for about $100. >I've found this discussion interesting, since 47th Street Photo is my >favorite mail-order photo store -- I order a very large amount of ... >I tend to feel that people who have complaints about mail order companies >of this sort often have unrealistic expectations of mail order companies. >If you order by mail, you should order something that's advertised in the >catalog, expect it in 30 days (as provided by law) unless they say it will >take longer, and not expect to be able to have the amenities of arguing >with the dealer over price, delivery dates, etc. that you have from a >local store. ... >You can't expect the impossible, like deciding 30 days is too long, >cancelling the order, and then refusing to pay for it because it had already >been shipped when you cancelled the order; nor expecting complicated order >changes after you've placed the order. These are the things you pay extra >for from a local dealer. >If the company acts in a fraudulent manner, New York has a very effective >District Attorney's office to get the problem straightened out, equipped >with fill-in-the-blank (by the D.A.'s office) forms which they send to the ... >Regarding the use of credit cards... I would be more wary of using a credit >card, since it provides a greater opportunity for someone to obtain and >use your credit card number illegally. On the other hand, with a money >order the *most* you can lose is the amount of the money order (as compared ... ---- Almost all of the complaints about mailorder firms that I've seen on this net, including all the ones I've received while running the mailorder survey, seem to me to be perfectly valid. Regardless of what practices have been made illegal and what one's are still technically legal, a mailorder firm has no business telling people things are in stock when they aren't or telling people they'll get something in a week when they know that's impossible. It is also their responsibility to run an efficient enough shop so that if a customer calls to cancel an order they can make sure it hasn't already been shipped and make sure that it doesn't get shipped, and that the customer is credited for the amount of the purchase. It may be legal to lie to your customers either in their advertizing or over the phone, but that doesn't make it right. I believe that the majority of these companies are trying to remain within the bounds of the law. That's why I trust them with my credit card number. I have so far heard no stories about any credit card fraud resulting from these mailorder firms misusing credit card information. I still think that using a credit card is the best way to deal with these firms. I look at these places as being the moral equivalent of a new car dealership. Some are better than others, but you have to watch out for them all. Vick Bennison ...decvax!decwrl!rhea!tools!bennison (603) 881-2156
jer@peora.UUCP (J. Eric Roskos) (01/28/86)
> It may be legal to lie to your customers either in their advertizing or > over the phone, but that doesn't make it right. This isn't what I said, though... It is not legal to lie to customers, either in advertising or over the phone. This is especially true in the case of mail order, since it involves interstate commerce. The law provides that if you order something by mail, the mail order company must ship the item within 30 days. If they are unable to do so, they must (at the end of the 30 day period) give you the option of cancelling your order and receiving a refund. They may also give you the option of not cancelling your order, in which case they have to tell you how long (the maximum amount of time) it will be before they ship it; if that time elapses and they still haven't shipped it, the process repeats again. However, the law also provides that they may specify at the time you place your original order that some (lengthier) time is required; in that case, the time they specify replaces the default of 30 days. This is why some advertisers say "Allow 4-6 weeks for delivery". Nevertheless, if they don't specify a time interval, and 30 days pass, they are clearly in violation of the law. Any mail order firm that has been in business for any reasonable amount of time knows this, and if they know you know this, they will be considerably more likely to do something about it. The reason I emphasized this in my prior posting was that it is important to know exactly what rules exist, and to follow them. I think that a lot of the idea that "the law allows one to lie to the customer" derives from people not understanding what the law does provide. I can't profess to understand it all myself, not being a lawyer; however, I try to know as much as is possible, which is indeed possible since there is a lot of literature available on mail order regulations (ask at your post office). I am fairly convinced that a number of the mail-order firms (but by no means all of them) are not dishonest. Only a few companies now in existence have managed to stay in business while consistently defrauding the public (and those seem to be run by people whose peculiar means of entertainment is to see how well they can evade the law). The honest companies may, however, employ salespeople who tend to bend the truth; they should not do this, and I suspect that if the company finds out that they have done so, they will take action to correct it. The problem is that there are two sides to any story, and you have to see both sides if you are going to be reasonably equitable. I agree that certain companies are less scrupulous than others; each that I've had any experience with has had a distinct "style" to their mail-order business, which has to be borne in mind. Furthermore, some I would not do any business with at all. Nevertheless, I have considerable confidence in some, since I bought all the photographic equipment I now own (except my enlarger) by mail order. On the other hand, the mail-order stores pose significant competition to the local photo-store, especially the local camera store (which sells only cameras and lenses), and in such a case, a lot of mythology evolves; salesmen in such stores are not so well constrained as the mail order stores. I hear of many stories that just aren't true, and even accounts in here that I suspect have other sides to them. Thus, don't think that I was saying "all photo stores are trustworthy," or anything else that simple; only that you have to do business with them with the nature of mail order business, which is different from over-the-counter sales, in mind. -- UUCP: Ofc: jer@peora.UUCP Home: jer@jerpc.CCC.UUCP CCC DNS: peora, pesnta US Mail: MS 795; CONCURRENT Computer Corp. SDC; (A Perkin-Elmer Company) 2486 Sand Lake Road, Orlando, FL 32809-7642 LOTD(3)=m "I didn't watch the Super Bowl."
bennison@algol.DEC (Victor Bennison - DTN 381-2156) (01/29/86)
---- >> It may be legal to lie to your customers either in their advertizing or >> over the phone, but that doesn't make it right. >This isn't what I said, though... I know what you said. But what you don't seem to understand is that I'm trying to say, "LEGAL SCHMEGAL". I don't care what the laws say. What I want is to avoid mailorder firms that lie through their teeth to get a sale. I want to get what I ordered under the terms agreed upon over the telephone at the time of the sale. >It is not legal to lie to customers, either in advertising or over the >phone. This is especially true in the case of mail order, since it >involves interstate commerce. Lying is hard to prove when it isn't in writing and there are no witnesses. I would imagine you'd have to prove intent or something, also. You see, none of us want to take anybody to court for lying. We just want our camera equipment. >The reason I emphasized this in my prior posting was that it is important >to know exactly what rules exist, and to follow them. I think that a lot >of the idea that "the law allows one to lie to the customer" derives from >people not understanding what the law does provide. I can't profess to >understand it all myself, not being a lawyer; however, I try to know as >much as is possible, which is indeed possible since there is a lot of >literature available on mail order regulations (ask at your post office). Thanks just the same. But you go read up on the law. I'll just order from the firms that do real well on the survey. I don't consider 47th Street's performance to compare well with some of the others. >The honest companies may, however, >employ salespeople who tend to bend the truth; they should not do this, and >I suspect that if the company finds out that they have done so, they will >take action to correct it. You can't hear me laughing hysterically. But I am. The owners and managers of these stores know EXACTLY what their salesmen do. I'll bet they even train them in the art. >The problem is that there are two sides to any story, and you have to see >both sides if you are going to be reasonably equitable. I see both sides. It's just that I don't like one of the sides. >On the other hand, the mail-order stores pose significant competition to >the local photo-store, especially the local camera store (which sells only >cameras and lenses), and in such a case, a lot of mythology evolves; >salesmen in such stores are not so well constrained as the mail order >stores. I hear of many stories that just aren't true, and even accounts >in here that I suspect have other sides to them. Local stores vary a lot also. But generally I think they are a lot more honest. After all, they have only the local population to draw from for customers. They have to work at attracting return business, because they can't compete with the New York store's advertized prices. I've bought about half my camera equipment locally. And I've managed to get competitive prices and good trade-in deals. >Thus, don't think that I was saying "all photo stores are trustworthy," or >anything else that simple; only that you have to do business with them >with the nature of mail order business, which is different from >over-the-counter sales, in mind. I don't expect the mailorder salesman to do anything but tell me if something is in stock and mail it to me if it is. Doesn't that sound simple enough? ---- Vick Bennison ...decvax!decwrl!rhea!tools!bennison (603) 881-2156
seltzer@opus.UUCP (Wayne Seltzer) (01/29/86)
I just ordered an Olympus XA outfit from Focus, Inc. in Brooklyn and
have been completely satisfied. Their price was $100 as opposed to $170
in the local camera discount store here in Boulder, CO.
They said it was in stock, I asked for UPS Blue label delivery and it
got here in 4 days. It's even a domestic model (non gray-market), with the
manufacturer's warranty. I'm happy...
Just wanted to make a positive note w/ all this activity about these
mail order shops. I'm sure there is plenty of incompetence in this business
just like many American firms (maybe even mine and *yours*), but this time
everything seemed to have worked correctly. Besides, I enjoyed a few words of
Yiddish with a shop from "back east."
--
Wayne Seltzer {hao,ucbvax,allegra}!nbires!seltzer
NBI Inc., Boulder, CO (303) 444-5710