poli-sci@ucbvax.ARPA (11/29/84)
From: JoSH <JoSH@RUTGERS.ARPA> Poli-Sci Digest Mon 26 Nov 84 Volume 4 Number 107 Vote, n. The instrument and symbol of a freeman's power to make a fool of himself and a wreck of his country. --Ambrose Bierce Contents: Disarmament? Jubilee Living the life of E. Coli Electronic Democracy ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 26 Nov 1984 0708-PST From: CAULKINS@USC-ECL.ARPA Subject: Unilateral Disarmament In a recent POLI-SCI digest (V4 #105) Rick McGeer said: "... we can never again unilaterally disarm, as we did in the 1970's. ..." The idea that the US somehow disarmed in the 1970s is a myth which seems to have been invented by the Reagan Administration. The facts* are as follows: During the period from 1970 to 1980 the US produced 6 new models of warheads: TYPE PRODUCTION MISSILE # DEPLOYED ---- ---------- ----------- ---------- W62 1967-1978 MMIII 900 W68 1970-1979 Poseidon 3480 W69 1970-1976 SRAM (B-52) 1140 W70 1971-1977 Lance 945 W76 1977-1983 Trident C4 2028 W78 1979-1983 MMIII 900 During the same period the US replaced all Minuteman I missiles with Minuteman IIs (1973); finished deployment of the Minuteman III (1975); and proceeded with development of various flavors of cruise missiles; SLCM (72-79), ALCM (76-79), and GLCM (77-80). This is only a partial list of US disarmament activity in the 70s. * - Nuclear Weapons Databook, Vol 1, U.S. Nuclear Forces and Capabilities ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Nov 84 17:37:54 pst From: Rick McGeer (on an aaa-60-s) <mcgeer%ucbkim@Berkeley> Subject: Re: Unilateral Disarmament I was thinking more of conventional arms. -- Rick. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Nov 84 15:29 EST From: Steven Gutfreund <gutfreund%umass-cs.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa> Subject: Year of Jubilee (Yuval) The laws of Yuval are D-orisa, (from the written Torah) and in D'vorim (Deutoronomy) they are clearly stated as applying the moment the Jews entered Israel (crossed the Jordan). [Not after the Babylonian exile as one person stated]. They do not apply today according to the consensus of opinons. [Explanatory note: among the property repatriated every 50 years were slaves. --JoSH] ------------------------------ From: wdoherty@mit-jason (William Doherty) Date: 28 Nov 1984 1650-EST (Wednesday) Subject: Life as a Cell I like Jeff's comparison of the planet with a human life. It's reminiscent of Lewis Thomas' "Lives of a Cell" and Lovelock's "Gaia." Will Doherty [The life of a cell, indeed. I presonally don't want to be a cell; with this model of the world you have thrown out any concept of individual rights, individual feelings, aspirations, or anything else that makes us human. I will not be a cog in a social machine. --JoSH] Looking at the world from one simplistic point of view, whether it be viewing the earth as a cell, or believing solely in the rights of the individual, will not provide a good impression of what actually occurs. The reason it is important to look at the earth as an organism, or a cell, is to understand that the earth, just as individual humans, requires some maintenance as a total system, rather than simply as the individual parts it comprises. Governments and corporations using the earth's resources do not regard these resources as the property of everyone on the planet, but as a resource available for them to take whenever possible without negotiation, but in any case with the least input of capital possible. Thus, the resources that are most difficult to protect are the resources that are most difficult to clearly assign ownership, as they are commonly owned, i.e. air and water. Few advocates exist for the protection of these resources and those advocates that do exist have little power to legislate and enforce environmental protections. Everyone has incentive to fix these problems, for themselves and for those to come, but the incentive is spread equally over the entire population, thus no one takes the final responsibility and little or nothing is done, to the disincentive of all. [The world=body argument here is circular, I think. There is no reason to believe that the world needs "total maintenance as a system", except that you think of it as an organism, and vice versa. Pointing out that some resources are not private property and thus not well conserved only suggests to me that those resources maybe should be private property after all... --JoSH] ------------------------------ Date: Mon 26 Nov 84 09:26:09-PST From: Terry C. Savage <TCS@USC-ECL.ARPA> Subject: Electronic democracy It has been suggested that electronic voting would mean that the poor would be less well represented. I think a case can also be made that the uneducated would be less well represented. If anyone is interested, I would be happy to defend the postion that both of these would be *benefits* of electronic democracy! TCS [E.D. is hardly necessary for the poor to be less well represented. Indeed I claim that the poor will be less well represented in any political system whatsoever. Consider the current one. As usual, this becomes obvious when considered from the opposite point of view than the one commonly taken. In any political system which dabbles deeply in the economic life of its country, political power becomes a source of great potential profit. It is thus worth a lot of money to obtain this power; and that money will be spent by those who have it. The law is most avidly bought and sold when it is worthwhile to acquire it. --JoSH] ------------------------------ Date: 28 Nov 1984 16:20:04 PST Subject: Electronic Democracy From: David Booth <DBOOTH@USC-ISIF.ARPA> From: Hank.Walker@cmu-cs-unh.arpa "I think the chances for fraud are greatly increased. When votes take place rarely, substantial effort can be put into detecting fraud. This isn't possible when votes take place every day. A slight bias in the voting to pass some little tax provision could mean big bucks to certain groups." In one sense, the potential for fraud may be increased, depending on how the system is implemented. Any proposed implementation should be carefully scrutinized to determine its potential for fraud. Again, simplicity is of the utmost importance. In another sense, the potential for fraud may be substantially decreased: recall the fraud that occurs every day in our current system, as our elected representatives' votes are swayed by Political Action Committees (PACs) and other special interests. This "slight bias" does indead mean "big bucks to certain groups", and we individuals are nearly powerless to do anything about it. We're stuck with our representative at least until next election, and even then there will most likely be only one other candidate to choose from. In contrast, under a proxy system we could select the person we really want to represent us -- instead of choosing between the lesser of two evils -- and since our proxy selection could be revoked at any time, proxies would have to be more sensitive to their "constituents". From: Hank.Walker@cmu-cs-unh.arpa "If you need electronics to vote, then voting isn't free." Voting certainly should be free. If any electronics are required, they should be equally accessible to rich and poor. See also my answer to Mike Zaleski below. From: Mike <ZALESKI@RUTGERS.ARPA> "How will we prevent 15 year old crackers (criminals) from disrupting the whole system? What computer system could possibly support such a grand national operation with reasonable reliability, response time, and security?" From: David Booth <booth@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA> "The proposed proxy system, even with a hierarchical discussion system and the ability to assign different proxies to different issues, is probably several orders of magnitude simpler than the defense computer systems to which we now entrust our lives each day. For a nationwide system to be secure and reliable, it is essential that it be simple." From: Mike <ZALESKI@RUTGERS.ARPA> "This sounds to me like proof by hand-waving." It was not intended as a "proof" -- it is merely a plausibility argument. Until a particular system or implementation is proposed, it is pointless to debate its security or insecurity. From: Mike <ZALESKI@RUTGERS.ARPA> "Most people don't have computer terminals." From: David Booth <booth@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA> "No, but it won't be long before they do. Furthermore, most people *do* have televisions and telephones right now." From: Mike <ZALESKI@RUTGERS.ARPA> "You left out two other parts of my argument: 1. Most people do not have any desire to spend their spare time playing around with computer terminals. This scheme strikes me as a thinly veiled attempt to establish a techno-elite leadership. 2. Expecting that people will either spend money for this equipment or pay a proxy will inevitably mean the poor get less of a voice in the new electronic order." I didn't address these points in my last message because I thought they had been adequately addressed before. In answer: 1. People who do not want to spend their time on politics can choose a proxy to represent them. Most people will choose to do this; it is one of the major reasons for a proxy system. 2. As our representatives, proxies should be paid by the government, based on how many people they actually represented. Individuals should not have to pay to vote or pay to use a proxy, because that would discourage participation and prevent the poor from being represented. Similarly, if a proposed system requires any special equipment, the required equipment should certainly be made accessible to rich and poor alike. From: Mike <ZALESKI@RUTGERS.ARPA> "I don't know quite how you intend to use the phone system in this electronic voting scenario, . . . ." I certainly would not advocate using the phone system in its current state. I mentioned that most people do have televisions and telephones, but I did not mean to imply that our current phone and TV systems should be used. I was simply trying to demonstrate that we do have the technology available to implement a system of Electronic Democracy. ---- From my original HUMAN-NETS message, which began this discussion: "Widespread availability of computers and electronic communication holds great potential for improving our self-governance. The purpose of this message is to solicit ideas of how this potential might be used to improve our existing system of government, or as a cornerstone in a completely new and better system of government." -- David Booth dbooth@usc-isif.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 28 Nov 1984 16:22:07 PST Subject: Moving ongoing discussions from one list to another From: David Booth <DBOOTH@USC-ISIF.ARPA> This discussion of Electronic Democracy has suffered greatly from -- Are you listening, moderators? -- being moved mid-stream from the HUMAN-NETS list, where it started, to POLI-SCI. Out of deference to those who had followed from HUMAN-NETS to POLI-SCI, I tried to avoid repeating answers on POLI-SCI. Unfortunately, the result was that for many points and questions raised by POLI-SCI readers, either: 1. the point had been made already in HUMAN-NETS; 2. a reply had already appeared in HUMAN-NETS; 3. the answer would have been obvious to those who had read the HUMAN-NETS part of the discussion; or 4. the point was irrelevant to the purpose of the discussion, stated in HUMAN-NETS. The moral: Thou shalt think long and hard before moving an ongoing discussion. -- David Booth dbooth@usc-isif.ARPA [We did. However, remember that it was for purposes of exactly this kind of discussion that PSci was split off from HNets in the first place. --JoSH] ------------------------------ End of POLI-SCI Digest - 30 - -------