[net.aviation] On-ground holds for ATC

wmartin (08/10/82)

This is NOT a general aviation question; it relates to commercial flights:

I've been taking flights for business purposes about once a month for a
while this year. Every flight, ecept one night flight, has been delayed
at the gate for 20-40 minutes due to being held at the gate by the air
traffic controllers, according to pilots' announcements. They usually
explain how this is better than circling at the destination, saves fuel,
and suchlike. I agree with this reasoning; it is logical. But why on
earth are the flights scheduled for time "n" and then delayed for 30
minutes at all?!?!? Why aren't they SCHEDULED for time "n + 30" to start
with? Can anyone explain the reasoning behind paying the crew and loading
the plane that extra 30 minutes ahead of when they can take off? As I
said, this affected EVERY flight I took during prime time, so what would
be wrong with just slipping all the schedules?

Bemusedly, Will Martin

PS@MIT-MC@sri-unix (08/12/82)

From: Peter E. Seissler <PS at MIT-MC>
The antique ATC computers (read abacus) can only predict loads so well.  I 
suspect that as departure time come near, they reevaluate the load on the route
(particularly for short runs), and reissue release times.  I've had some delays
since the strike, but not always .  Perhaps you've just been unlucky.

Remember, controller workload can also vary with personell numbers (i.e. sector
cosolidation).  The airlines can't change the schedule on short notice (people
have made reservations), so they must play it by ear.  

					Pete

wagner (08/14/82)

I also experienced an on-ground hold - in my case, for ATC at
the destination of the flight.  Since I had to make a 
connection there, I was a little concerned.  But I did have 
45 minutes to make the connection, and the hold was only for
15 minutes.  Well, to make a long story short, we were held
for an hour.  ATC kept us in LA to relieve a congestion problem
at Ohare, but the congestion problem couldnt have been all
that bad - they let the Chicago-Toronto connecting flight out
right on time.  So I spent the night in Ohare.  Only partly
paid for by the airline, by the way.
2 Questions:
1) Why is congestion less of a problem for the landing plane
   than the plane taking off?  Or was the congestion problem
   on the ground?  Incidentally, it wasnt just a few people
   making the connection - about 30 of us.
2) The airline found me a sheet of paper claiming that they are
   no longer liable for the cost of puttingme up if ATC made 
   them do it.  Do anyone know if this is for real or not?
   How do I check that ATC really did it to me?  I have only
   the airlines say so - and it is clearly in their best
   interests to say so.  And if so, how do I express to ATC my
   feelings about their  being unable to handle regularly
   scheduled flights?  I dont mind them cutting down their
   comittments because Reagan gave it to them in the ear, but
   I do resent the airlines not being able to come through on
   their comittment to get me home for essentially predictable
   load reasons.  From the point of view of the user (me), ATC
   is part of the transportation (like the works department for
   a road), and if the bus company and the repair department 
   cant co-ordinate their schedules with repairs, I think I
   have a right to complain.  What do other people think?

Michael Wagner, UTCS